Talmud, OT and morality of god
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
28-10-2015, 09:28 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(28-10-2015 08:57 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I will have to tell you that I disagree with you entirely. Let's use the example of lust. Jesus says that to even look or think about someone in lust is adultery. I think almost everyone here can agree that cheating on your spouse isn't right. Now let's just say I am in a bar with two friends. One is an atheist and the other is a Christian. Both of them are married. We see a very attractive waitress and both of them start to check her out. Who do you think I will confront and why? I will confront the Christian because as a Christian he should know about this teaching and to ensure peace and blessings (an avoid possible guilt) I will stop him.

A perfect example of a Flamboyant Christian™. Thumbsup

Or, as I like to call them, "assholes". Drinking Beverage

It's none of your fucking business what his reaction is.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Chas's post
28-10-2015, 09:32 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
I wonder why Jason just doesn't state "I check the motivations of my tribe because I understand tribal law?" My suspicions are that he still feels that Christians are somehow objectively superior. Undecided

Also feels kinda creepy that he admits to hanging out at the periphery waiting to swoop in at the first sign of weakness lie a Jesus raptor. Undecided

[Image: ZF1ZJ4M.jpg]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like houseofcantor's post
28-10-2015, 09:35 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(28-10-2015 08:57 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Now who is going to hold the atheist accountable when their personal standards are not being upheld?... Because the truth is that when it comes to "personal standard" you are saying that the only accountability you have is yourself and that you are the only thing protecting yourself from yourself. How well does that work for you?

It works out just fine for me, thankyouverymuch. I'm smart enough to know when I do wrong, and smart enough to know that doing bad things makes me feel bad. I'm smart enough to remember not to do those things again, because I don't like to feel bad. I don't need a nanny or a chaperone to tell me over and over what a horrid person I am, nor do I need to be protected from myself, whatever that means.

(28-10-2015 08:57 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  You are referring to old testament law.

The biggest cop out for christians. "Oh, it's in that ~other~ part of the book." If the OT is out of date, why not toss it? Why not admit you don't follow those rules anymore and just do away with it?

Your true colors are beginning to show.

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Thinkerbelle's post
28-10-2015, 09:38 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(28-10-2015 05:32 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(27-10-2015 01:19 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Now to answer your question. I do not think Christians are better than anyone else. Christians are flawed as I previously stated but I believe they are more accountable for their actions.

No, no, no, just no. Jason, I can guarantee you that every atheist on this forum is just as accountable for their actions as you. In the statement above you fail to see the very dichotomy of what you say. “We’re not better BUT we’re more accountable”, which in my eyes is bullshit. I am as much accountable for my actions as you are for yours, no more, no less.

You say what you say because you believe your god is keeping track of who’s been naughty and who’s been nice and sitting in judgement of you.
Meanwhile someone like me knows when I look in the mirror everyday that the person looking back is the one person I must appease and live with. My faults and shortcomings live with me everyday and the only one who can atone or correct them is me. I am 100% accountable to me, I hold no one or nothing else as either a scapegoat or responsible.

Saying Christians are more accountable again shows your bias. This is not an accusation but rather an observation. If you are going to be a Chaplain I think you need to open your eyes on how your current thinking comes across to anyone NOT a Christian.

(27-10-2015 01:19 PM)‘jason_delisle Wrote:  Now I am trying very hard to respect atheistic beliefs. I am not perfect at it but I am a working progress. I am not going to hold atheist to the standards written in the bible. It's not fair. Why should I try to force you to conform to the commandments of a religion? I would be upset if a Orthodox Jew told me I was going to hell because I ate bacon. Why should I do the same to anyone else. Btw... I love bacon.

Bro, the standards of the Bible are so base and low and immoral and dehumanizing that saying you won’t hold an atheist to its standards is compliment.

(27-10-2015 01:19 PM)‘jason_delisle Wrote:  I really hope this will explain my personal views in a way that is understandable. Do you agree that Christians, Jews, Muslim, or Hindu ought to be held accountable for what they claim to represent? Would you be outraged is a person of faith willingly violated the teachings of their faith only to judge you for not living up to their expectations?

You say this from Christian perspective and fail to utterly realize what the are ramifications.
When a Muslim follows the edicts of the Q’uran on such things as apostasy or against infidels by killing them are you not giving them your stamp of approval by your thinking above?
How about when a Christian child is unruly? Are you not failing to represent the teachings of the Bible when you don’t stone him?

Be careful what standards you hold so highly without truly examining them is my advice to you.
Now I explained earlier that from my understanding the abuse of children within the Christian faith is a result from the gross neglect of understanding of what is actually taught in the bible. Of course I can only speak in regards to biblical topics. I don't know much about Muslim or Hindu doctrine or beliefs. But what I do know is that the majority of Muslims condemn radical extremist Islamic ideology. I don't know what the qu'ran teaches. I can only assume that it is due to ignorance that extremists exist. That can be applied to all religions.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-10-2015, 09:55 AM (This post was last modified: 28-10-2015 06:15 PM by DLJ.)
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(28-10-2015 08:57 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  ...
I will have to tell you that I disagree with you entirely. Let's use the example of lust. Jesus says that to even look or think about someone in lust is adultery.
...

LUST = Luv U Short Time.

I got no problem with that.

But I ain't married so where's the adultery? No breach of contract over here. Thanks.

Whoever wrote that on behalf of Matt putting words in Jesus's mouth was living in the dark ages... literally and figuratively.

(28-10-2015 08:57 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  ...
Jesus picked up a stone and showed it to the priests and said "he without sin may cast the first stone".
...

Except he didn't.

The best moral teaching in the bible and who the fuck knows who wrote it?

Someone deserves some credit but it ain't Jesus.

Smartass

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like DLJ's post
28-10-2015, 10:05 AM (This post was last modified: 28-10-2015 10:09 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(28-10-2015 08:57 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Let's use the example of lust. Jesus says that to even look or think about someone in lust is adultery.

Ever heard of thought crime? To me christianity looks suspiciously like fascism.

(28-10-2015 08:57 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I think almost everyone here can agree that cheating on your spouse isn't right.

If it isn't open relationship then I agree.

(28-10-2015 08:57 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Now let's just say I am in a bar with two friends. One is an atheist and the other is a Christian. Both of them are married. We see a very attractive waitress and both of them start to check her out. Who do you think I will confront and why?

Don't want to sound dickish but do you have any friends? You seriously confront your friends when they are looking on pretty womans?

(28-10-2015 08:57 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I will confront the Christian because as a Christian he should know about this teaching and to ensure peace and blessings (an avoid possible guilt) I will stop him.

You ever thought that not every christian shares your interpretation of religion? Or simply don't care about your opinion about thought "crimes"?

(28-10-2015 08:57 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  So let's just say that only the Christian checks out the waitress but then it is the atheist who tells the Christian "hey man, that's messed up. You should respect women." The Christian will still have to admit you are correct and stop his behavior.

Maybe in some fantasy land where people whip themselves when they look on their wives with "lust".

I must say that you aren't painting great picture of yourself with this talk about thought crimes. Pardon my french but that's fucked up.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-10-2015, 10:15 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(28-10-2015 10:05 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  ...
(28-10-2015 08:57 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I think almost everyone here can agree that cheating on your spouse isn't right.

If it isn't open relationship then I agree.
...

Technical fault: In an open relationship, it can't be 'cheating'.

Carry on. Thumbsup

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-10-2015, 10:17 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(28-10-2015 10:15 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(28-10-2015 10:05 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  ...

If it isn't open relationship then I agree.
...

Technical fault: In an open relationship, it can't be 'cheating'.

Carry on. Thumbsup

I thought how to phrase it. Cheating with other side consent would be my guess. Though I'm not opossed to call it differently.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-10-2015, 10:46 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(28-10-2015 08:57 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I will have to tell you that I disagree with you entirely. Let's use the example of lust. Jesus says that to even look or think about someone in lust is adultery. I think almost everyone here can agree that cheating on your spouse isn't right. Now let's just say I am in a bar with two friends. One is an atheist and the other is a Christian. Both of them are married. We see a very attractive waitress and both of them start to check her out. Who do you think I will confront and why? I will confront the Christian because as a Christian he should know about this teaching and to ensure peace and blessings (an avoid possible guilt) I will stop him.

Thought crimes, oh dear. I understand what you are saying but enforcing thought crimes was established by the church to control the populace. I suppose it’s your perogative to confront whomever you deem your friend and scold them of thought crimes but man Confused as others have said it reeks between fascism and “non of your fucking business”.

(28-10-2015 08:57 AM)‘jason_delisle Wrote:  Now on the other hand I agree that just because someone is an atheist that does not mean they have lower standards, as you explained. So let's just say that only the Christian checks out the waitress but then it is the atheist who tells the Christian "hey man, that's messed up. You should respect women." The Christian will still have to admit you are correct and stop his behavior. Now let's just say both of my friends are atheists and the same scenario occurs. If one friend says to the other that it is derogatory to women to look at them like a piece of meat, the other can simply say "I don't care don't. That is your standard don't try to put your standards on me. Do you think you are better than me because I think it is ok to check out the waitress and you don't? " Now who is going to hold the atheist accountable when their personal standards are not being upheld? I won't correct him. I may not even know what his standards are and why should I but my standards on him?

In my life I have found that being a dick cuts across all boundaries, be they religious, racial, gender or political. Your sense of what is right and wrong and mine might very well be identical however if I were to say something to my friend for being dickish it would not be because of the teachings of Jesus. As for your last question, “...why should I but my standards on him?” should be applied across the board to all individuals regardless of belief.

(28-10-2015 08:57 AM)‘jason_delisle’ Wrote:  Have you ever found that sometimes you may have high personal standards on a specific issue but then those standards slowly erode over time? Then eventually you ask yourself "how did I ever sink so low?" Because the truth is that when it comes to "personal standard" you are saying that the only accountability you have is yourself and that you are the only thing protecting yourself from yourself. How well does that work for you?

Great actually. As a few others have already said standards change over time. In many respects I’m much harder on myself now than when I was younger. Call it experience. I think I have become a better person as I have grown older, I certainly became much more loving and caring to my fellow man after dropping religion.

(28-10-2015 08:57 AM)‘jason_delisle Wrote:  I hear a lot of people on this forum talking about stoning unruly children. You are referring to old testament law.

17 ”Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 ”For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.…
Consider
Has all been accomplished? If not then it seems that a Christian not stoning unruly children is not following the Law. Just saying.

(28-10-2015 08:57 AM)‘jason_delisle’ Wrote:  Without things getting out of hand you should read what I posted in the thread regarding that topic. Basically Jesus raised the standards. When confronted with an adulteress who was to be stoned to death he was asked if the Jews should carry out the penalty that Moses commanded. Jesus picked up a stone and showed it to the priests and said "he without sin may cast the first stone". He did not specifically tell them that she does not deserve to be stoned and that it was wrong. His focus was that to show mercy and forgiveness in spite of the law because "mercy overcomes judgment". This is something that that church in New York failed to recognize and most Christians (unfortunately not all) would condemn such behavior.

OK. So when you admonish your friend for lusting did it cross your mind that perhaps “he without sin may cast the first stone”, should apply to you as well?

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Full Circle's post
28-10-2015, 10:55 AM (This post was last modified: 28-10-2015 10:59 AM by Full Circle.)
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(28-10-2015 09:38 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I can only assume that it is due to ignorance that extremists exist. That can be applied to all religions.

I disagree because if you were to follow the Laws to the letter be they Christian, Muslim or Jewish you would find that many of them are barbaric viewed by modern humans.

It isn’t ignorance that makes the religious extremists...no, it is close adherence to their scriptures. Think on that for a bit and tell me if I’m wrong.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Full Circle's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: