Talmud, OT and morality of god
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
21-10-2015, 04:05 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
@GirlyMan

He has a two options:

1) Shut up and make you a sandwich.

2) Honor his father and mother.

Pick your prefered one.

Freedom is servitude to justice and intellectual honesty.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes epronovost's post
21-10-2015, 04:26 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
Aliza, I don't mean to offend you. I mean that. But the booze is in my head, my inhibitors are shot, and I'm going to do this.

This is something I remember from my New Age woo days:

[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ5VFMPuRlTizHRcC33kD6...a-KXgUNu7l]



Does it look human to you?

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

Alouette, je te plumerai.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-10-2015, 05:00 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 04:05 PM)epronovost Wrote:  @GirlyMan

He has a two options:

1) Shut up and make you a sandwich.

2) Honor his father and mother.

Pick your prefered one.

Oh he's gonna make me a sandwich all right.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-10-2015, 06:59 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 04:26 PM)Old Man Marsh Wrote:  Aliza, I don't mean to offend you. I mean that. But the booze is in my head, my inhibitors are shot, and I'm going to do this.

This is something I remember from my New Age woo days:

Does it look human to you?

Nah.

I mean, I guess a little bit, but it's only because of the letters being stacked like that, and mushed together. People are very good at finding patterns like that, but I don't think this particular pattern is relevant.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Aliza's post
21-10-2015, 07:12 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 06:59 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(21-10-2015 04:26 PM)Old Man Marsh Wrote:  Aliza, I don't mean to offend you. I mean that. But the booze is in my head, my inhibitors are shot, and I'm going to do this.

This is something I remember from my New Age woo days:

Does it look human to you?

Nah.

I mean, I guess a little bit, but it's only because of the letters being stacked like that, and mushed together. People are very good at finding patterns like that, but I don't think this particular pattern is relevant.

You're probably right. It wouldn't make sense for the hair to be on fire. Still, I think it's kind of neat.

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

Alouette, je te plumerai.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-10-2015, 07:28 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
Some excellent thought-provoking stuff in this thread. I'm enjoying it.

I liked this...

(21-10-2015 01:12 PM)Aliza Wrote:  ...
Torah is a book about how to live your life.

- If you wrong someone, make it right.
- Don’t cheat on your spouse.
- Don’t cheat someone in business.
- Stick together as a people.
- Take care of orphans, widows, the elderly, the sick, and the poor.
- Treat everyone with dignity and respect.

These are the main ideas that Torah teaches; it's the meat of the story.
...

I can't help wondering why all the padding, then? Big books are more profitable than bumper stickers?

But it's gotta be a good thing that "Treat everyone with dignity and respect" no longer contains the caveat "everyone (in your tribe)".

(21-10-2015 01:49 PM)Aliza Wrote:  ...
You're right. Belief in G-d is not an essential ingredient in being a good Jew, or for being a good human. We don't follow the scriptures because of a belief in G-d.

Shouldn't that be, as shown above, ... "We don't follow ... the main ideas of ... the scriptures because of a belief in G-d"?

Because obviously it's not about following all the scriptures, just the essence.

(21-10-2015 04:05 PM)epronovost Wrote:  @GirlyMan

He has a two options:

1) Shut up and make you a sandwich.

2) Honor his father and mother.

Pick your prefered one.

Why not both?

Unsure

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-10-2015, 08:16 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 07:28 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Some excellent thought-provoking stuff in this thread. I'm enjoying it.

I liked this...

(21-10-2015 01:12 PM)Aliza Wrote:  ...
Torah is a book about how to live your life.

- If you wrong someone, make it right.
- Don’t cheat on your spouse.
- Don’t cheat someone in business.
- Stick together as a people.
- Take care of orphans, widows, the elderly, the sick, and the poor.
- Treat everyone with dignity and respect.

These are the main ideas that Torah teaches; it's the meat of the story.
...

I can't help wondering why all the padding, then? Big books are more profitable than bumper stickers?

But it's gotta be a good thing that "Treat everyone with dignity and respect" no longer contains the caveat "everyone (in your tribe)".

(21-10-2015 01:49 PM)Aliza Wrote:  ...
You're right. Belief in G-d is not an essential ingredient in being a good Jew, or for being a good human. We don't follow the scriptures because of a belief in G-d.

Shouldn't that be, as shown above, ... "We don't follow ... the main ideas of ... the scriptures because of a belief in G-d"?

Because obviously it's not about following all the scriptures, just the essence.

It is about following as much scripture as you can… just not in the way that western people from Christian based cultures tend to expect, and not with all of the fear of damnation and wrath of G-d stuff if we don't. We believe that murdering your son for being disobedient is a gross infraction of the law, and NOT murdering your son for being disobedient IS following the law to the letter. –Which I guess kind of agrees with what you are saying: The essence of the law takes on a totally different color when viewed through the lens of Talmud.

It’s a lot bigger and more complex than I’ve stated in this thread, but I’m trying to boil it down to the main ideas and the most important topics so people can get a round idea of what Judaism and the Talmud are (and what they are not) and how these texts factor into Jewish practice.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Aliza's post
21-10-2015, 08:23 PM (This post was last modified: 21-10-2015 08:44 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 08:16 PM)Aliza Wrote:  It’s a lot bigger and more complex than I’ve stated in this thread, but I’m trying to boil it down to the main ideas and the most important topics so people can get a round idea of what Judaism and the Talmud are (and what they are not) and how these texts factor into Jewish practice.





I have trouble acting normal when I'm nervous.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes GirlyMan's post
21-10-2015, 08:27 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 02:00 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  
(21-10-2015 11:02 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  If God created everything then it created our morality as well, regardless of If you believe it or not. Having a level of morality as an atheist just means that you do not accept that it is God given. It does not mean that God didn't give it. It just means that you can't perceive it.

Pops...what do we have to do to get you to reason logically?

First of all, let's look at your argument:

--if god created everything then god created morality--
--Morality exists--
--god must have created morality--

Where do I even begin? The logical fallacies in this deductive argument are copious.
You have to prove:

1.) that a god(s) exists.

2) Since so many gods have been posited, you must state which god(s) you are talking about.

3.) Must prove that this god or gods created everything

4.) You have to define morality

5.) You have to explain why this god or gods allowed different nuances of morality to come into existence when he/she/it gave some type of "absolutism" of morality in the beginning of existence (if this is what you are claiming).

6.) You have to explain why this god has allowed moral standards to change over time (which refutes objective morality and essentially calls for a relativist view) and puts you back into the position of explaining why this god/gods did not just give everyone the same moral code from the beginning of existence.

7.) Most of all you to reflect on the question, Is what is morally good commanded by god because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by god?

If there are moral standards independent of god's will, then there is something over which god is not sovereign. god is bound by the laws of morality instead of being the one who established those laws. Moreover, god depends for his goodness on the extent to which he conforms to an independent moral standard. Thus, god is not absolutely independent.

Essentially these moral standards would limit god's power: not even god could oppose them by commanding what is evil and thereby making it good.

Also the moral standards would limit god's freedom of will: he/she/it could not command anything opposed to them, and perhaps would have no choice but to command in accordance with them.

Furthermore you must also face the divine command theory dilemma which says that there are no moral standards other than god's will: without god's commands, nothing would be right or wrong.

1.) If there is no moral standard other than god's will, then god's commands are arbitrary.

2.) This arbitrariness would also jeopardize god's status as a wise and rational being, one who always acts on good reasons.

3.) If morality depends on the perfectly free will of god, then it would lose necessity.

I can sum all of this up by saying if you are arguing for morality coming from god you have an incredibly arduous mountain to climb. Especially since morality has evolved over time. This very ideal makes morality meaningless from an objective stand point if you say (for example) god condoned slavery in the OT but now he doesn't.
"A" must always equal "A". If god decides that "A" is NOT moral today but was moral many years ago, you have no objective by which to base this standard and it completely eviscerates said standard rendering the standard not only useless but unable to define.
People's perspectives have changed through time and society. In the time that the Torah came about slavery was a fact of life. And yes the only peaceable way to address this for the best outcome of all was for the servants to be the best they could possibly be, and that the owners would be as kind and providing as possible. Morality, nor God has changed. Man's perspective and interpretation has always differed with the times.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-10-2015, 08:38 PM (This post was last modified: 21-10-2015 09:22 PM by Free Thought.)
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 04:00 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(21-10-2015 03:29 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  You said that God is just in response to Bucky quoting Deuteronomy 21:18-21, which reads as follows:

Yabut, what if it's me who is stubborn and rebellious and a glutton and a drunkard? What's my son to do?

I am unsure, however, if we take you as a glutton for the drink in isolation, I think we can easily follow the precedent set by Noah and one of his sons.

At some point unidentified in time after the Ark landed, the righteous Mr. Noah began to heavily partake of drink. During this time, one of his sons (who shall remain nameless at his own request) discovered the fine, upstanding Mr. Noah unconscious. The result of yet another day of drink. Mr. Noah was so inebriated as to have passed out exposed.
His son quickly went to work and covered his father up in order to save him his dignity. However for this act, Mr. Noah later cursed at his son and threw him out of his home.

Mr. Girly, I believe that based on this biblical precedent, you as a drunkard and father would be perfectly within your rights to throw your son out into the wastes should he do anything but turn a blind eye to any and all of your drunken antics.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Free Thought's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: