Talmud, OT and morality of god
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28-10-2015, 03:42 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(28-10-2015 03:25 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  
(28-10-2015 03:13 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  All I really want is to be a good Chaplain and help people. That includes atheist. But I need everyone's help and support to make sure I don't screw up in the field.
The most important thing here is that each of us is different. You may be looking for the "atheist opinion" or the "atheist feeling." There's no such thing.

The only thing that ties us together is a lack of belief in gods. Some say they know 100% there are no gods. Others say they've never seen proof so they don't believe. Others were never raised with religion, so they don't understand how anyone would believe.

I think you're looking for one or two things that will help atheists. I'm glad you care enough to want to help atheists as a chaplain, but I have the feeling it will be harder than you think.

Some atheists are offended by "God bless you." Some don't care.

Some atheists are offended by hearing someone offers a prayer. Some don't care.

Some atheists are offended by a chaplain offering help, concerned they'll try to convert. Some don't care.

Some atheists automatically distrust theists, usually Christians, because they immediately toss Hell threats. Most theists don't, and some atheists don't care or laugh.

Some atheists confront theists on their beliefs. Some don't.

Some atheists know holy books better than practitioners. Some don't care.

Atheists only have one thing in common: no gods. There are good atheists and there are asshole atheists. There are good Christians and there are asshole Christians. Same with Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Wiccans, and so on.

Pick your battles.
Excellent point. I will keep all those in my notebook. Yes...I am taking notes on my screw ups.
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28-10-2015, 03:45 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(28-10-2015 03:13 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  It's ok. I am not saying that I am the end all be all authority of the bible.

There is no shortage of books about Bible so no offence but if I would want to know something I would check that in them as I don't suppose that you're expert.

(28-10-2015 03:13 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I just want to help as much as possible and I want to be careful not to feed you crap.

Problem is that what you consider good stuff others easily could consider crap.

(28-10-2015 03:13 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  But if it is my faith itself that is offensive I can't help you.

Don't know about others but I do not need your help. And if you really believe that looking on women with "lust" is adultery then yes, I do find your faith offensive. Supporting of concept of thought crimes tend to piss me off.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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28-10-2015, 03:48 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(28-10-2015 03:13 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(28-10-2015 03:04 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Did I just detected heavy note of sarcasm? Or I just see everything as a sarcasm?
It's ok. I am not saying that I am the end all be all authority of the bible. I just want to help as much as possible and I want to be careful not to feed you crap.

If you are talking Christian theology or apologetics, then you are trying to feed us crap.

Quote:All I really want is to be a good Chaplain and help people. That includes atheist. But I need everyone's help and support to make sure I don't screw up in the field.

If you are talking Christian theology or apologetics, then you are screwing up.

Quote:I rather unknowingly say something rude or offensive on a forum full o people I will probably never have the pleasure of meeting that to do it to someone who is coming to me with suicidal intentions in their heads.

If you are talking Christian theology or apologetics, then you are doing it wrong unless that person is a Christian.

Quote:Does that make sense? That is why I want to know if anything I say or do is offensive. But if it is my faith itself that is offensive I can't help you.

It only makes sense if you realize that talking Christian theology or apologetics is neither the only nor the most effective means of acheiving it.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-10-2015, 03:51 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(28-10-2015 02:50 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  It is when I answer questions about my faith only to have my faith attacked and picked apart like I am on trial is where I have a problem.

I think that is the core of the issue you are having here...

Quote:In short, my religious beliefs comes from the bible. So to try to disprove my beliefs by trying to convince me that the bible is wrong is viewed in my opinion as an attempt to convince me to reject my faith. Thus become an atheist.

If somebody asks why you believe something and you reply with a bible verse then it is completely natural to ask why you believe that to be a valid answer. This is where I see you exhibiting a persecution complex -- anytime anybody questions your faith you get incredibly defensive. If you had good reasons for what you believe I doubt the reaction would be the same.

Quote:Honestly, on this site, without trying to search for any "implied meaning" when did I ever try to use scripture or my faith to "convert" anyone? When, without looking for any "implied meanings" did I ever even suggest that anyone on this forum change anything in their current lifestyles by using scripture?

I see that as implied whenever you hold up a bible verse as the reason for anything. You are saying that scripture is to be believed and followed but not providing any reason why we should accept that or even why you accept that.

Quote:The purpose of me being on this site to answer questions in regards to Christianity. If you ask things like "why would a Christian believe such a crazy thing?", I will use scripture to explain why they would have such a crazy idea. It may or may not be my personal belief but it may explain their thought process.

You do realize that many, if not most, of the people here were believers for many years and are very familiar with the bible and where xians get the beliefs that they have, right? Even those of us that never believed have read the books and listened to the arguments for years because we are inundated with people telling us that we are wrong.

You don't need to explain where you get the crazy belief according to the text, you need to explain WHY you would believe those cray things.

Quote:I am on this site to attempt to set straight any scripture that I believe is taken out of context. I try to be very objective when explaining the context of the scripture. If I don't know something I will do my own research by going through the original old testament hebrew or new testament greek so you are not hearing some regurgitation of some preprogrammed response that I got from some preacher. So when I hear people (including Christians ) use Deuteronomy 21:18-21 to either justify killing kids or make God seem immoral by the standards of men, I will attempt to inform the audience using scripture to disprove this accusations. That is the one time I believe it is acceptable to challah ge my beliefs. If you can uses scripture to show me that my interpretation of the bible is wrong, I welcome it. I encourage it. As a Christian, that is what I would want you to do. Use scripture to disprove my interpretation of the bible is ok. But I am not ok with people using scripture and their personal opinions to disprove my faith.

Again, the bible says many things and much of it is vague and apparently contradictory and open to interpretation. There are probably as many variations of xianity ans there are xians because everybody seems to take from it what they want to. Some interpretations are pretty wild, but most can be backed up by picking and choosing what to read literally and what to read as metaphor. Your interpretation is no more or less valid than most others unless you can provide some sort of external standard to measure it against.

Quote:The third reason why I am on this site is because I am studying to be a chaplain in the military. One of my primary responsibilities as a chaplain is to ensure that every service member's freedoms of religion is protected. That includes atheist. I want to better understand how atheist are treated and how they can be protected from persecution. If an atheist comes to my office asking for help with a personal issue and he requires the confidentiality that is entrusted in a chaplain (can be anything not just spiritual ), I need to know how I can get him to open up to me and avoid accidentally shutting him down.

I think that's going to be very difficult for you until you accept that neither the bible nor faith will mean anything to them. Attempts to use either as a base for anything will likely make it impossible to gain their trust.

Quote:I am really not upset with anyone here. Yes I am a little frustrated at times but that's to be expected. I am a Christian on an atheist forum after all.

Yeah, it is pretty obvious that you aren't used to dealing with atheists (or skeptics).

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28-10-2015, 03:52 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(28-10-2015 03:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-10-2015 12:55 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I don't think so... I think he's the real deal.

Having discovered he had some Jewish ancestry not until he was an adult doesn't make him Jewish except by Judaism's rules.

He never practiced the religion nor experienced the culture. Drinking Beverage

Yeah, but DLJ scores a 30 or 40% on the Jew-Scale (even through the internet.) Results like that aren't coincidence when the test is being administered through a nameless, faceless forum like this one.

Nah, I've got to claim him.

Tartarus only scored a 10%. I would have missed him if he didn't out himself on the interviews.
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28-10-2015, 04:02 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(28-10-2015 03:52 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Yeah, but DLJ scores a 30 or 40% on the Jew-Scale (even through the internet.) Results like that aren't coincidence when the test is being administered through a nameless, faceless forum like this one.

Nah, I've got to claim him.

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“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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28-10-2015, 04:05 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(28-10-2015 03:52 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(28-10-2015 03:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  Having discovered he had some Jewish ancestry not until he was an adult doesn't make him Jewish except by Judaism's rules.

He never practiced the religion nor experienced the culture. Drinking Beverage

Yeah, but DLJ scores a 30 or 40% on the Jew-Scale (even through the internet.) Results like that aren't coincidence when the test is being administered through a nameless, faceless forum like this one.

Nah, I've got to claim him.

Tartarus only scored a 10%. I would have missed him if he didn't out himself on the interviews.

Is the Jew-Scale objective? Consider

How did he score much of anything when he never lived it in any way? Facepalm

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-10-2015, 04:05 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(28-10-2015 01:26 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(28-10-2015 01:06 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Nothing wrong with provoking if one can take the heat that results from it.
Ok guys. I will go to senseativity training to learn how not to get an atheist offended and provoked because apparently it is very easy to do.

Cross off these strategies, they aren't working:

Passive aggression (of the bless your heart, I'll pray for you type)
Active aggression (taking offense at someone's post to you, deconstructing their words in the same way you're complaining about people deconstructing yours)
Condescension (Asserting that your understanding of Christianity is necessarily superior to the forum members', many of them serious students of this religion, asserting that your moral code is superior and harder to live by, asserting that you're here to "correct" understanding of the Bible--at best you can provide your reading of a passage and back it up as best you can)
Sarcasm piled on top of the above ("sensitivity training")

Some people here are easily offended, some are not. Stick around and you'll figure that out and stop worrying about the people who are automatically going to dismiss your points, be hyperconfrontational, etc. There's not a way to apologize and defend that is going to get everyone on your side or win everyone around to your POV. There's a "must get the last word" vibe to your posts at this point, and that isn't doing you any favors.
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28-10-2015, 04:10 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(28-10-2015 04:05 PM)julep Wrote:  
(28-10-2015 01:26 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Ok guys. I will go to senseativity training to learn how not to get an atheist offended and provoked because apparently it is very easy to do.

Cross off these strategies, they aren't working:

Passive aggression (of the bless your heart, I'll pray for you type)
Active aggression (taking offense at someone's post to you, deconstructing their words in the same way you're complaining about people deconstructing yours)
Condescension (Asserting that your understanding of Christianity is necessarily superior to the forum members', many of them serious students of this religion, asserting that your moral code is superior and harder to live by, asserting that you're here to "correct" understanding of the Bible--at best you can provide your reading of a passage and back it up as best you can)
Sarcasm piled on top of the above ("sensitivity training")

Some people here are easily offended, some are not. Stick around and you'll figure that out and stop worrying about the people who are automatically going to dismiss your points, be hyperconfrontational, etc. There's not a way to apologize and defend that is going to get everyone on your side or win everyone around to your POV. There's a "must get the last word" vibe to your posts at this point, and that isn't doing you any favors.

SO TRUE! ...he doesn't get it though. He's got a long way to go.
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28-10-2015, 04:14 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(28-10-2015 12:55 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(28-10-2015 12:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  DLJ is a faux Jew. Drinking Beverage

I don't think so... I think he's the real deal.

Can you be a Jew without being circumcised?

#sigh
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