Talmud, OT and morality of god
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21-10-2015, 08:42 PM
Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 08:27 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(21-10-2015 02:00 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  Pops...what do we have to do to get you to reason logically?

First of all, let's look at your argument:

--if god created everything then god created morality--
--Morality exists--
--god must have created morality--

Where do I even begin? The logical fallacies in this deductive argument are copious.
You have to prove:

1.) that a god(s) exists.

2) Since so many gods have been posited, you must state which god(s) you are talking about.

3.) Must prove that this god or gods created everything

4.) You have to define morality

5.) You have to explain why this god or gods allowed different nuances of morality to come into existence when he/she/it gave some type of "absolutism" of morality in the beginning of existence (if this is what you are claiming).

6.) You have to explain why this god has allowed moral standards to change over time (which refutes objective morality and essentially calls for a relativist view) and puts you back into the position of explaining why this god/gods did not just give everyone the same moral code from the beginning of existence.

7.) Most of all you to reflect on the question, Is what is morally good commanded by god because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by god?

If there are moral standards independent of god's will, then there is something over which god is not sovereign. god is bound by the laws of morality instead of being the one who established those laws. Moreover, god depends for his goodness on the extent to which he conforms to an independent moral standard. Thus, god is not absolutely independent.

Essentially these moral standards would limit god's power: not even god could oppose them by commanding what is evil and thereby making it good.

Also the moral standards would limit god's freedom of will: he/she/it could not command anything opposed to them, and perhaps would have no choice but to command in accordance with them.

Furthermore you must also face the divine command theory dilemma which says that there are no moral standards other than god's will: without god's commands, nothing would be right or wrong.

1.) If there is no moral standard other than god's will, then god's commands are arbitrary.

2.) This arbitrariness would also jeopardize god's status as a wise and rational being, one who always acts on good reasons.

3.) If morality depends on the perfectly free will of god, then it would lose necessity.

I can sum all of this up by saying if you are arguing for morality coming from god you have an incredibly arduous mountain to climb. Especially since morality has evolved over time. This very ideal makes morality meaningless from an objective stand point if you say (for example) god condoned slavery in the OT but now he doesn't.
"A" must always equal "A". If god decides that "A" is NOT moral today but was moral many years ago, you have no objective by which to base this standard and it completely eviscerates said standard rendering the standard not only useless but unable to define.
Morality, nor God has changed. Man's perspective and interpretation has always differed with the times.

As usual you have merely asserted your own opinion, void of reason and logical thinking, without addressing any of the issues. *sigh* why do I even try???

Pops please pick up and read some good books on logic / fallacies so you can at least come to the table with a legitimate baseline for coherent discussion. Otherwise you might as well get used to people constantly belittling your incompetent babbling.

**Crickets** -- God
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21-10-2015, 09:01 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 08:42 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  
(21-10-2015 08:27 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Morality, nor God has changed. Man's perspective and interpretation has always differed with the times.

As usual you have merely asserted your own opinion, void of reason and logical thinking, without addressing any of the issues. *sigh* why do I even try???

Pops please pick up and read some good books on logic / fallacies so you can at least come to the table with a legitimate baseline for coherent discussion. Otherwise you might as well get used to people constantly belittling your incompetent babbling.
My response was to your summary at the end of your exaggerated post. What's wrong with my answer that you feel the need to imply I don't get basic productive thought processes and productive communication(not politician style debate)?
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21-10-2015, 09:07 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 08:27 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  People's perspectives have changed through time and society. In the time that the Torah came about slavery was a fact of life. And yes the only peaceable way to address this for the best outcome of all was for the servants to be the best they could possibly be, and that the owners would be as kind and providing as possible. Morality, nor God has changed. Man's perspective and interpretation has always differed with the times.

That's a common theistic response and it is complete bullshit. If a god can say "thou shalt not kill" and "thou shalt not steal" then he can say "thou shalt not own people as property". Slavery wasn't allowed because that's the best the god could hope for, it was allowed because no god was involved at all.

(21-10-2015 09:01 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  What's wrong with my answer that you feel the need to imply I don't get basic productive thought processes and productive communication(not politician style debate)?

Other than just about everything you post?

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21-10-2015, 09:19 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 08:38 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(21-10-2015 04:00 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Yabut, what if it's me who is stubborn and rebellious and a glutton and a drunkard? What's my son to do?

I am unsure, however, if we take you as a glutton for the drink in isolation, I think we can easily follow the precedent set by Noah and one of his sons.

At some point unidentified in time after the Ark landed, the righteous Mr. Noah began to heavily partake of drink. During this time, one of his sons (who shall remain nameless at his own request) discovered the fine, upstanding Mr. Noah unconscious. The result of yet another day of drink. Mr. Noah was so inebriated as to have passed out exposed.
His son quickly went to work and covered his father up in order to save him his dignity. However for this act, Mr. Noah later cursed at his son and threw him out of his home.

Mr. Girly, I believe that based on this biblical precedent, you as a drunkard and father would be perfectly within your rights to throw your son out into the wastes should your he do anything but turn a blind eye to any and all of your drunken antics.

Suck my ass. The fuck's wrong with you.

#sigh
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21-10-2015, 09:25 PM (This post was last modified: 21-10-2015 09:28 PM by Free Thought.)
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 09:19 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(21-10-2015 08:38 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  I am unsure, however, if we take you as a glutton for the drink in isolation, I think we can easily follow the precedent set by Noah and one of his sons.

At some point unidentified in time after the Ark landed, the righteous Mr. Noah began to heavily partake of drink. During this time, one of his sons (who shall remain nameless at his own request) discovered the fine, upstanding Mr. Noah unconscious. The result of yet another day of drink. Mr. Noah was so inebriated as to have passed out exposed.
His son quickly went to work and covered his father up in order to save him his dignity. However for this act, Mr. Noah later cursed at his son and threw him out of his home.

Mr. Girly, I believe that based on this biblical precedent, you as a drunkard and father would be perfectly within your rights to throw your son out into the wastes should your he do anything but turn a blind eye to any and all of your drunken antics.

Suck my ass. The fuck's wrong with you.

No, thank you.

Sir, I say unto you that the precedent is clearly established by the case of Noah v [redacted], and as such I do not believe that there is any fault with myself in relaying this legal fact to you.

Furthermore, I would suggest sir, that you do not fight the Lore.

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21-10-2015, 09:34 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 09:25 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(21-10-2015 09:19 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Suck my ass. The fuck's wrong with you.

No, thank you.

Sir, I say unto you that the precedent is clearly established by the case of Noah v [redacted], and as such I do not believe that there is any fault with myself in relaying this legal fact to you.

Furthermore, I would suggest sir, that you do not fight the Lore.

Yeah, whatever, suck my ass.

#sigh
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21-10-2015, 09:45 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 09:07 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(21-10-2015 08:27 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  People's perspectives have changed through time and society. In the time that the Torah came about slavery was a fact of life. And yes the only peaceable way to address this for the best outcome of all was for the servants to be the best they could possibly be, and that the owners would be as kind and providing as possible. Morality, nor God has changed. Man's perspective and interpretation has always differed with the times.

That's a common theistic response and it is complete bullshit. If a god can say "thou shalt not kill" and "thou shalt not steal" then he can say "thou shalt not own people as property". Slavery wasn't allowed because that's the best the god could hope for, it was allowed because no god was involved at all.

(21-10-2015 09:01 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  What's wrong with my answer that you feel the need to imply I don't get basic productive thought processes and productive communication(not politician style debate)?

Other than just about everything you post?
It was more like a means of sustenance at that time. Their were few wealthy. They owned lots of land and cattle. They needed people to manage what the more privileged owned. The less fortunate needed sustenance and shelter. It was similar to work now. You act like it's condoning traditional slavery, when really it's promoting peace, and working, and fair equal treatment given the times and terms.
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21-10-2015, 10:11 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
What the hell is going on why is there ass sucking involved here. I don't think FT is saying you're a drunkard, just that the bible says you can throw your kids out if you were.

A man should not believe in an ism, he should believe in himself. -Ferris Bueller

That's what a ship is, you know. It's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs but what a ship is... what the Black Pearl really is... is freedom. -Jack Sparrow
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21-10-2015, 10:22 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(21-10-2015 10:11 PM)Imathinker Wrote:  What the hell is going on why is there ass sucking involved here. I don't think FT is saying you're a drunkard, just that the bible says you can throw your kids out if you were.

I'm just dicking with him and he knows it. ... And he should suck my ass.

#sigh
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21-10-2015, 10:41 PM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
Aliza has made the point before that there is G-d's law and M-n's Law Laughat ... and they are different.

I'm not sure whether it started with the Torah or was just first documented there but this distinction is a key step in human emancipation from tyranny.

It's been a slow a painful slog away from having any respect for the divine right of the divine or of king's etc.

This might have something to do with Man being better at policing Man's Law. God's approach to policing seems to be on a par with the policing of Malaysian driving regulations ... non-existent.

God's Law only seems to apply to insurance policies nowadays.

And of course, God's Law is pretty much the same as Girly's Law ... "suck my arse!"

Big Grin

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