Talmud, OT and morality of god
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29-10-2015, 06:27 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(29-10-2015 06:20 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(28-10-2015 07:58 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I can say with comfortable-for-a-diehard-skeptic certainty that this guy is The Real Deal™, now.

Amazing how much a little actual evidence does for making a claim believable.

Well, considering we had started facebook chatting, it was a little hard to deny the guy was the real deal. I explained, there, in much more detail, what he had done that triggered the "Poe alerts", and why it was so. He understood and said he'd had no idea what atheists are forced to go through on account of his fellow Believers... quite literally, he sounded like a Poe or troll because he couldn't even imagine someone doing that sort of thing. (He didn't say that; it's just my read of it.)

He's actually kind of an awesome guy.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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29-10-2015, 06:30 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(29-10-2015 06:27 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  He's actually kind of an awesome guy.

I doubt it but I guess perception vary.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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29-10-2015, 06:31 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(29-10-2015 06:27 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(29-10-2015 06:20 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Amazing how much a little actual evidence does for making a claim believable.

Well, considering we had started facebook chatting, it was a little hard to deny the guy was the real deal. I explained, there, in much more detail, what he had done that triggered the "Poe alerts", and why it was so. He understood and said he'd had no idea what atheists are forced to go through on account of his fellow Believers... quite literally, he sounded like a Poe or troll because he couldn't even imagine someone doing that sort of thing. (He didn't say that; it's just my read of it.)

He's actually kind of an awesome guy.

I should have seen the signs. He wasn't picking up on the sarcasm... I took it for poe'ing, but really, he didn't get the sarcasm.
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29-10-2015, 06:53 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
I think it boils down to a very simple premise. He has made friends with atheists in the real world in a place he didn't think they existed (as many people think, thus the "in foxholes" expression), and he feels his own faith so strongly that he literally cannot understand how people can not believe the things he does. He's trying to learn because he feels a sense of responsibility to them, which (unfortunately, from our perspective) includes trying to figure out what it is that leads them away from belief. He knows that he has to expand his narrow view of religion, if he is to serve as an effective chaplain, so we are a good way to do it.

He comes from a culture in which you say what you mean and mean what you say, and that made it harder for him to grasp that the way things sound on the internet don't necessarily work the same way as in his world. He also had no idea what Poes were, or that people came here to torment us with the same expressions which he meant kindly/innocently and unironically.

No one (including him) is saying we must agree with his position... but I don't have an issue with a person's ignorance, only with those unwilling to try to correct their knowledge-gaps. He is trying. Just got off to a bad start. Aliza did a good job of explaining why that start was rocky, and I helped him a lot with some real-time chat on FB.

Just trust me, please, when I say that he has really good reasons for his beliefs, and he wasn't even offended when I offered him a skeptic's POV on the same events. He acknowledged that his conclusions are in part a matter of perspective, and that it's not more likely to be the signs he interpreted... only that he chose to do so, but considers them overwhelming evidence of his purpose nevertheless.

I read this guy a bit like KC on here, or Kingpin on AF.org, in that once they learn the lingo they'll prove to be fantastic allies of the freethinker community.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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29-10-2015, 06:55 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(29-10-2015 05:48 AM)Aliza Wrote:  ...
Was it Full Circle who snapped a picture of the two of you together?

I don't know which one was you, but both of the guys in that photo looked like they could be Jewish. The one on the left looked maybe a bit more Jewish.

So were you the left or the right?

The waitress snapped it.

Yes, I was indeed on the left or the right. And so was Full Circle.

Tongue

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29-10-2015, 06:57 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(29-10-2015 06:55 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(29-10-2015 05:48 AM)Aliza Wrote:  ...
Was it Full Circle who snapped a picture of the two of you together?

I don't know which one was you, but both of the guys in that photo looked like they could be Jewish. The one on the left looked maybe a bit more Jewish.

So were you the left or the right?

The waitress snapped it.

Yes, I was indeed on the left or the right. And so was Full Circle.

Tongue

Dodgy
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29-10-2015, 07:00 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(29-10-2015 06:27 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(29-10-2015 06:20 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Amazing how much a little actual evidence does for making a claim believable.

Well, considering we had started facebook chatting, it was a little hard to deny the guy was the real deal. I explained, there, in much more detail, what he had done that triggered the "Poe alerts", and why it was so. He understood and said he'd had no idea what atheists are forced to go through on account of his fellow Believers... quite literally, he sounded like a Poe or troll because he couldn't even imagine someone doing that sort of thing. (He didn't say that; it's just my read of it.)

He's actually kind of an awesome guy.

Well, I was just making a mildly sarcastic observation that evidence is what is important but I don't really disagree with you. My impression is that he's an intelligent guy who is just really deeply indoctrinated such that anything that doesn't fit his religious worldview is deflected before he can really think about it.

He has said a few times that he's amazed at how much atheists have to deal with from believers but then says this:
(28-10-2015 01:21 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  It is hard to not provoke people when some (not all) on this site have this "It's so hard to be an atheist today with all the judgmental Christians bullying us all the time" victim mentality who assume everything a Christian says on an atheist forum has an ulterior motive or evangelistic purpose.
I see in him the same split personality that I see in many believers; when what you are saying isn't a direct conflict with their beliefs you can sometimes get a response from the rational thinking person. It doesn't take long, however, for the religious part to reassert and push it all out of sight so that the belief is protected.

I hope he does stick around, especially if he really does want to work as some kind of counselor. He has the potential but it is not going to be easy. He has to learn, and truly assimilate the knowledge, that he can't just fall back on xian platitudes when dealing with non-xians, especially atheists. It will do more harm than good.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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29-10-2015, 07:17 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
Well said.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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29-10-2015, 07:18 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(28-10-2015 06:43 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(28-10-2015 06:39 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Well, you're very close. You have the right idea. Messianic Jews and Christians both believe that Jesus is a god, and they worship him as though he was the real G-d.

Jews believe that when the real G-d wrote the Torah, that he didn't make any mistakes, goofs or gaffs when he said that He is one and that He is not a man. Jews believe that G-d would never make such a huge mistake! We also believed him when he told us that the Messiah would be a normal, every-day Jew from the house of David. So you see? Jesus can't have been the Messiah! And we're really grateful that he told us to watch out for a Jewish man that would come along one day claiming to be a prophet and doing signs and wonders... but that if he contradicted even one letter of the law, then he was a false prophet! Thank G-d for that warning, otherwise, we might be worshipping Jesus right now!
So what is your take on the commandments in leviticus and Deuteronomy? I am also curious about what Jews think about Matthew 1 when they say that Jesus was not from the house of David?

Well, I'm not a Jew (Damn it! Now I can't play the "Spot the Jew" game), but as for Matthew 1: It claims that Joseph, the stepfather of Jesus, was descended from David. However, it also claims that Joseph was not the actual father of Jesus, so I don't see how Joseph's descent matters. Maybe by some legal definition, Jesus was "of the house of David" (perhaps Aliza could clear that up), but he was not a physical descendant of David -- except maybe through Mary (some people have actually made this claim, but I see no evidence of it in the Bible or anywhere else).

It's interesting that Luke also claims Davidic ancestry for Joseph, but does so through a completely different genealogy. This, among other things, leads me to mistrust both genealogies.
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29-10-2015, 07:26 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(29-10-2015 07:18 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(28-10-2015 06:43 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  So what is your take on the commandments in leviticus and Deuteronomy? I am also curious about what Jews think about Matthew 1 when they say that Jesus was not from the house of David?

Well, I'm not a Jew (Damn it! Now I can't play the "Spot the Jew" game), but as for Matthew 1: It claims that Joseph, the stepfather of Jesus, was descended from David. However, it also claims that Joseph was not the actual father of Jesus, so I don't see how Joseph's descent matters. Maybe by some legal definition, Jesus was "of the house of David" (perhaps Aliza could clear that up), but he was not a physical descendant of David -- except maybe through Mary (some people have actually made this claim, but I see no evidence of it in the Bible or anywhere else).

It's interesting that Luke also claims Davidic ancestry for Joseph, but does so through a completely different genealogy. This, among other things, leads me to mistrust both genealogies.

Jesus would have had to inherit the house from his biological father. It doesn't count through the mother.

Both genealogies listed are invalid anyway. They both have disqualifying factors.

Jesus *might* have inherited the house of David from his *real* biological father, but then he's a disqualified for being the product of adultery -Although I'm not sure if the Messiah can't possibly be from adultery. Maybe it doesn't specifically disqualify that possibility. I think the Christians made up both lineages based on previous listings in the bible, didn't realize that there were flaws with them because they didn't read all of the text, and have thus painted themselves into a corner with it.
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