Talmud, OT and morality of god
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29-10-2015, 07:56 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(29-10-2015 07:55 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(29-10-2015 07:53 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I agree with you about the bloodlines which is why I find it interesting that Joseph's bloodline was used because he was the stepfather.

You'll have to work out those reasons within your own religion. Whatever reason you find will unlikely be able to be supported in Judaism.
I will. I got my homework. What ever I find I will turn over to you for the smell test.
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29-10-2015, 08:02 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
Are there some religions that are more tolerant to atheism than others? I understand that if there was an atheist who followed the laws in the Talmud many Jews would be fine but is there any religions are considered better or worse in regards to acceptance towards atheism?
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29-10-2015, 08:05 AM (This post was last modified: 29-10-2015 08:11 AM by Grasshopper.)
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(29-10-2015 07:53 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(29-10-2015 07:47 AM)Aliza Wrote:  The reason that the bloodlines matter is because Christians are claiming that Jesus is the Jewish messiah. They boldly state that Jews have "missed the boat" in failing to recognize Jesus, and that we're all going to hell because of it.

The claim is that Jesus is the Messiah that the Jews were anticipating, and so those claims should be able to be substantiated in the Jewish scriptures. -But they're not. They're in fact in opposition to the Jewish definition of Messiah.
I agree with you about the bloodlines which is why I find it interesting that Joseph's bloodline was used because he was the stepfather.

Some Christian apologists will claim that the reason Matthew's and Luke's genealogies are so different is that one is Joseph's bloodline and one is Mary's. I'm not buying that, though, since they both clearly end with Joseph. Mary is not mentioned, except as Joseph's wife. Ironically, the people who make this claim tend to be Biblical literalists -- but the only way to support their claim is by not reading these passages literally!
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29-10-2015, 08:07 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(29-10-2015 08:05 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(29-10-2015 07:53 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I agree with you about the bloodlines which is why I find it interesting that Joseph's bloodline was used because he was the stepfather.

Some Christian apologists will claim that the reason Matthew's and Luke's genealogies are so different is that one is Joseph's bloodline and one is Mary's. I'm not buying that, though, since they both clearly end with Joseph. Mary is not mentioned, except as Joseph's wife. Ironically, the people who make this claim tend to be Biblical literalists -- but the only way to support their claim is by not] reading these passages literally!
Yeah. Kinda like when I have to deal with "flat earthers" and people who literally believe the entire universe was created in 6 days.
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29-10-2015, 08:10 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(29-10-2015 08:05 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(29-10-2015 07:53 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I agree with you about the bloodlines which is why I find it interesting that Joseph's bloodline was used because he was the stepfather.

Some Christian apologists will claim that the reason Matthew's and Luke's genealogies are so different is that one is Joseph's bloodline and one is Mary's. I'm not buying that, though, since they both clearly end with Joseph. Mary is not mentioned, except as Joseph's wife. Ironically, the people who make this claim tend to be Biblical literalists -- but the only way to support their claim is by not] reading these passages literally!

It doesn't matter whose genealogies they are because neither of them passed down the y-chromosome to Jesus. -And both of the genealogies are disqualified. One comes down through a person cursed to lose the crown for all his descendants, and the other goes through Nathan and not Solomon. Both are wrong!

And by virtue of the fact that the NT takes the time to list genealogies, they seem to recognize that the messiah has to come from the house of David. Both of those genealogies DO come from the house of David... just the wrong branches. They list the genealogies because they're giving credibility to the Jewish expectation that messiah will come from David.
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29-10-2015, 08:13 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(29-10-2015 08:02 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Are there some religions that are more tolerant to atheism than others? I understand that if there was an atheist who followed the laws in the Talmud many Jews would be fine but is there any religions are considered better or worse in regards to acceptance towards atheism?

Buddhists tend to treat us very well. In fact, many Buddhists are atheists, because even though Buddhism is derived from Hinduism, it is actually a religion that does not technically have any gods. Siddhartha Gautama was quite clear that even though he was the first to discover the path to Enlightenment (attain Buddha status), he was not a god and should not be worshiped, only followed by example.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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29-10-2015, 08:25 AM (This post was last modified: 29-10-2015 08:32 AM by Grasshopper.)
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
I actually find it amusing to see all the hoops they jump through to justify Jesus as Messiah. Matthew apparently puts great stock in "prophecies" (like our own "Q Continuum"), and repeatedly has Jesus doing such-and-such "so that the prophecy might be fulfilled". But he misquotes prophecies, combines prophecies from different sources, etc. -- and then has Jesus simultaneously riding two different animals into Jerusalem because he doesn't understand Hebrew parallelism.

I think Matthew and Luke independently made up different nativity stories (to have "Jesus of Nazareth" born in Bethlehem -- notice how they use completely different methods of making that happen), and different genealogies (to have Joseph be a descendant of David) -- but then shot themselves in the foot by (a) garbling the genealogies, and (b) having Joseph not be the father of Jesus anyway!

It's so obviously contrived that it puzzles me how anyone can believe it.
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29-10-2015, 08:31 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(29-10-2015 08:25 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I actually find it amusing to see all the hoops they jump through to justify Jesus as Messiah. Matthew apparently puts great stock in "prophecies" (like our own "Q Continuum"), and repeatedly has Jesus doing such-and-such "so that the prophecy might be fulfilled". But he misquotes prophecies, combines prophecies from different sources, etc. -- and then has Jesus simultaneously riding two different animals into Jerusalem because he doesn't understand Hebrew parallelism.

I think Matthew and Luke independently made up different nativity stories (to have "Jesus of Nazareth" born in Bethlehem -- notice how they use completely different methods of making that happen), and different genealogies (to have Jesus be a descendant of David) -- but then shot themselves in the foot by (a) garbling the genealogies, and (b) having Joseph not be the father of Jesus anyway!

It's so obviously contrived that it puzzles me how anyone can believe it.

Matthew made up a prophecy too. No one in the Hebrew Scriptures does it say that the messiah will be a Nazarene -Ie: From the city of Nazareth. (different spelling completely from the people who don't touch grape products or cut their hair)

It also doesn't say anywhere that the messiah will be a Netzir (I can't spell that one in English, sorry. I mean the people who can't touch grape products).
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29-10-2015, 08:34 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(29-10-2015 08:13 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(29-10-2015 08:02 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Are there some religions that are more tolerant to atheism than others? I understand that if there was an atheist who followed the laws in the Talmud many Jews would be fine but is there any religions are considered better or worse in regards to acceptance towards atheism?

Buddhists tend to treat us very well. In fact, many Buddhists are atheists, because even though Buddhism is derived from Hinduism, it is actually a religion that does not technically have any gods. Siddhartha Gautama was quite clear that even though he was the first to discover the path to Enlightenment (attain Buddha status), he was not a god and should not be worshiped, only followed by example.
Ok. Would it be safe to describe Buddhists as "spiritual atheist" because they don't believe in a god or gods but believe in a spirit or state of being?
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29-10-2015, 08:46 AM
RE: Talmud, OT and morality of god
(29-10-2015 08:34 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  ...
Ok. Would it be safe to describe Buddhists as "spiritual atheist" because they don't believe in a god or gods but believe in a spirit or state of being?

It would be unsafe.

"Spirit" implies dualism / a supernatural magic substance thingy.

"State of being" would be OK.

(29-10-2015 08:31 AM)Aliza Wrote:  ... a Netzir (I can't spell that one in English, sorry. I mean the people who can't touch grape products).

That's the spirit!

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