Tax cut petition

[Wolftyr72]

If interested please sign this petition. If not...then don't.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petitio...s/zBw6kj7H

[Logica Humano]

Tax cuts would devastate the economy. Taxes are the lowest they've been for years. Taxes need to be raised, especially when the economy is back on track.

[themanchicken]

(16-11-2012 08:09 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Tax cuts would devastate the economy. Taxes are the lowest they've been for years. Taxes need to be raised, especially when the economy is back on track.

No doubt. We are currently experiencing the disaster of over-production combined with the consequences of the 1% leeching money from the economy causing people to not be able to purchase goods and services. At the same time we're seeing employers race to the bottom with wages and benefits while the costs of living are still on the rise.

We could all do well to look long and hard at the pre-1920's (1916-1919 in particular) in American history... history is most certainly repeating itself. Hopefully the workers' movement picks up as it did then. A healthy workers' movement could really take a bite out of this trend of cut-backs and demonization of the poor who have no control over their material conditions.

While the rich like to say that there is infinite upward mobility, it is important to recognize that even if we all got straight A's in school and went to medical school... we cannot all be doctors. Someone has to pick up the garbage, make the coffee, pump the gas, work retail, stock shelves, and clean the floors and toilets. If we truly valued the most socially necessary jobs with the highest pay, the nurses, garbage collectors and the school teachers would be among the highest paid professions. As it is it isn't the most necessary job that gets rewarded for "success," it is the job which leaches the most capital from the economy.

[earmuffs]

(16-11-2012 05:42 PM)themanchicken Wrote:  

(16-11-2012 08:09 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Tax cuts would devastate the economy. Taxes are the lowest they've been for years. Taxes need to be raised, especially when the economy is back on track.

No doubt. We are currently experiencing the disaster of over-production combined with the consequences of the 1% leeching money from the economy causing people to not be able to purchase goods and services. At the same time we're seeing employers race to the bottom with wages and benefits while the costs of living are still on the rise.

We could all do well to look long and hard at the pre-1920's (1916-1919 in particular) in American history... history is most certainly repeating itself. Hopefully the workers' movement picks up as it did then. A healthy workers' movement could really take a bite out of this trend of cut-backs and demonization of the poor who have no control over their material conditions.

While the rich like to say that there is infinite upward mobility, it is important to recognize that even if we all got straight A's in school and went to medical school... we cannot all be doctors. Someone has to pick up the garbage, make the coffee, pump the gas, work retail, stock shelves, and clean the floors and toilets. If we truly valued the most socially necessary jobs with the highest pay, the nurses, garbage collectors and the school teachers would be among the highest paid professions. As it is it isn't the most necessary job that gets rewarded for "success," it is the job which leaches the most capital from the economy.

We get rewarded for more then "success".
Sure we need garbage workers and doctors, and while not everyone can be doctors, everyone CAN be garbage collectors.

It's not just about "success", it's about value, replace-ability and skills required.
Garbage truck driver could be replaced tomorrow by some high school drop out or it could be replaced tomorrow by some PhD in Philosophy (more likely to happen imo). Where as if a doctor was to die or something you can't pick some random up off the street.
Though totally agree nurses and teachers are underpaid. BUT in saying that, those two jobs are unique in a sense. Those two jobs are more jobs you do because you like kids or you wanna help people and those are the jobs that really need those types of people. If teachers were to be paid like 80K a year you'd get people who hate kids getting a teacher degree because of the money. It's a matter of balance between incentivising (yes I know I spelled that wrong, no time to correct it) between someone who WANTS to be a teacher/nurse and paying them what they deserve.

[themanchicken]

(16-11-2012 06:29 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  

(16-11-2012 05:42 PM)themanchicken Wrote:  No doubt. We are currently experiencing the disaster of over-production combined with the consequences of the 1% leeching money from the economy causing people to not be able to purchase goods and services. At the same time we're seeing employers race to the bottom with wages and benefits while the costs of living are still on the rise.

We could all do well to look long and hard at the pre-1920's (1916-1919 in particular) in American history... history is most certainly repeating itself. Hopefully the workers' movement picks up as it did then. A healthy workers' movement could really take a bite out of this trend of cut-backs and demonization of the poor who have no control over their material conditions.

While the rich like to say that there is infinite upward mobility, it is important to recognize that even if we all got straight A's in school and went to medical school... we cannot all be doctors. Someone has to pick up the garbage, make the coffee, pump the gas, work retail, stock shelves, and clean the floors and toilets. If we truly valued the most socially necessary jobs with the highest pay, the nurses, garbage collectors and the school teachers would be among the highest paid professions. As it is it isn't the most necessary job that gets rewarded for "success," it is the job which leaches the most capital from the economy.

We get rewarded for more then "success".
Sure we need garbage workers and doctors, and while not everyone can be doctors, everyone CAN be garbage collectors.

It's not just about "success", it's about value, replace-ability and skills required.
Garbage truck driver could be replaced tomorrow by some high school drop out or it could be replaced tomorrow by some PhD in Philosophy (more likely to happen imo). Where as if a doctor was to die or something you can't pick some random up off the street.
Though totally agree nurses and teachers are underpaid. BUT in saying that, those two jobs are unique in a sense. Those two jobs are more jobs you do because you like kids or you wanna help people and those are the jobs that really need those types of people. If teachers were to be paid like 80K a year you'd get people who hate kids getting a teacher degree because of the money. It's a matter of balance between incentivising (yes I know I spelled that wrong, no time to correct it) between someone who WANTS to be a teacher/nurse and paying them what they deserve.

I'm not sure that's true. The trash companies around here have been looking for trash collectors for weeks, and the hours and requirements of the job are more than many people are capable of. I think you have a very elitist view when it comes to trash collectors. I'm wondering what the basis for your air of superiority of people who work hard to make it so that you don't have to wallow in your own filth is.

Also, keep in mind that very few people are *just* garbage truck drivers. There are licensing requirements, etc. This is actually a skilled profession, despite your ignorant dismissal of them.

[Free Thought]

I am just waiting for the citizenry to call for no taxes. if it does happen I will gladly sit over here and laugh and laugh and laugh.

[themanchicken]

Also, regardless of how skilled the work is or isn't, if someone goes to work, does their job and does it well, how are they somehow less just because someone else could also do what you do? I mean, look at speculator markets. I suspect I could figure out how to follow the flock mentality of commodities markets as well as anybody else, so how come they get rewarded so much?

[themanchicken]

(16-11-2012 06:46 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  I am just waiting for the citizenry to call for no taxes. if it does happen I will gladly sit over here and laugh and laugh and laugh.

The funny thing is that the vast majority of the anti-tax rhetoric originates from folks who make a shit-ton more than the median income. I saw one complaining about increasing taxes on dividends hurting people who pay bills with dividends. You have to have a *LOT* of equity in a company in order to pay your bills with dividends, and I doubt most people will ever have enough stock to pay even just one major bill with their dividends.

[earmuffs]

(16-11-2012 06:41 PM)themanchicken Wrote:  

(16-11-2012 06:29 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  We get rewarded for more then "success".
Sure we need garbage workers and doctors, and while not everyone can be doctors, everyone CAN be garbage collectors.

It's not just about "success", it's about value, replace-ability and skills required.
Garbage truck driver could be replaced tomorrow by some high school drop out or it could be replaced tomorrow by some PhD in Philosophy (more likely to happen imo). Where as if a doctor was to die or something you can't pick some random up off the street.
Though totally agree nurses and teachers are underpaid. BUT in saying that, those two jobs are unique in a sense. Those two jobs are more jobs you do because you like kids or you wanna help people and those are the jobs that really need those types of people. If teachers were to be paid like 80K a year you'd get people who hate kids getting a teacher degree because of the money. It's a matter of balance between incentivising (yes I know I spelled that wrong, no time to correct it) between someone who WANTS to be a teacher/nurse and paying them what they deserve.

I'm not sure that's true. The trash companies around here have been looking for trash collectors for weeks, and the hours and requirements of the job are more than many people are capable of. I think you have a very elitist view when it comes to trash collectors. I'm wondering what the basis for your air of superiority of people who work hard to make it so that you don't have to wallow in your own filth is.

Also, keep in mind that very few people are *just* garbage truck drivers. There are licensing requirements, etc. This is actually a skilled profession, despite your ignorant dismissal of them.

You missed the point.
Do you need a degree in trash collecting to be a trash collector? do you need 3-4-5years study and XXX amount of work experience hours to become a trash collector?? no.
You need only apply for the job and they'll train you up one afternoon or weekend or something.

A doctor on the other hand...

This is my point. Sure trash collecting might be a bit of an artform in your opinion, but it's one easily learned by any idiot.

It's no an elitist attitude, it's reality. I'm sick to death of this mind set that people have that the only people who work hard are people with shit jobs like garbage collecting. It's entirely false and extremely ignorant.
I'm not saying they don't work hard, I'm saying they're not the only ones who do work hard. A CEO is very often first in and last out.

Here trades are in high demand. They'd typically be considered "lesser" educated jobs, but because they're in high demand tradesmen can charge pretty much what they like. There are some plumbers in this country for example that are earning 6 figures.
That's the beauty of a free market, even crappy jobs like plumbers, if in high demand, can charge more.