Tax the church?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
01-07-2012, 01:49 AM
RE: Tax the church?
I suppose you have a point there Buddy, I just don't like the idea of their tax exemption BECAUSE they are a church. Now if they got the same tax exemption through the same manner as non-profit charities, that would be perfectly acceptable to me, and it probably wouldn't do too much to churches that actually do provide to the community, it would only incentivize those churches who don't. It would be quite hard to argue against that sort of thing.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-07-2012, 03:20 AM
RE: Tax the church?
(01-07-2012 01:38 AM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  
(01-07-2012 01:04 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  what a load of crap.
If I owned a business and paid say 30% tax. I can't then tell the government where to spend my 30% tax I paid to them. Sure you can protest or whatever that the government should be doing this that or the other but church groups already do that.

You DO have a voice through being taxed. Unfortunately, you don't have the numbers behind you for anyone to listen. The church has a much louder voice. The top 1% hold sway over government policies because they have trillions of reasons for the government to take notice. Likewise, the church would suddenly have millions of people all demanding to be heard.


Here are a few more problems:

The Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment of the US Constitution bars the US government from limiting the free expression of religion. By demanding church taxes, the government becomes empowered to penalize or shut down churches if they default on their payments. The US Supreme Court confirmed this in McCulloch v. Maryland (1819) when it stated: "the power to tax involves the power to destroy."

Churches earn their tax-exemption by contributing to the public good. Churches offer numerous social services to people in need, including soup kitchens, homeless shelters, afterschool programs for poor families, assistance to victims of domestic violence, etc. These efforts relieve government of doing work it would otherwise be obliged to undertake.

The only constitutionally valid way of taxing churches would be to tax all nonprofit charities, otherwise the government would be treating churches differently, purely because of their religious nature. This action would place undue financial pressure on the 960,000 public charities that aid and enrich US society.



I would like the church to be taxed. but it's just not so black and white. If anything, the government should be able to tax preachers and ministers themselves who use donation money to live in mansions. Donations should be spent on things that are helpful to society, not to fill the pockets of snake oil salesmen.
God damn I hate being on the losing side of a debate.

[Image: 3cdac7eec8f6b059070d9df56f50a7ae.jpg]
Now with 40% more awesome.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like earmuffs's post
01-07-2012, 11:46 AM
RE: Tax the church?
Haha it happens, I find it almost refreshing sometimes.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-07-2012, 12:05 PM
RE: Tax the church?
One of the reasons for not taxing churches is that if they were taxed it could be done in an unfair manner, thus providing a way to discriminate against some religions. This would be a violation of the First Amendment.
It is thus presumed that the only way to have a level playing field is to not tax.

I understand the logic of this, but I think it is overkill.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-07-2012, 12:20 AM
RE: Tax the church?
That's why I think they should meet the qualifications of a non-profit charity or some other organization to reach tax exemption rather than getting it for the fact that it is a church.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-07-2012, 12:25 AM
RE: Tax the church?
(01-07-2012 01:42 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Alternative solution:
Anyone who pays tithes / donates to any church / gets tax exemption etc. does not get to use anything paid for and maintained by the state i.e. roads, hospitals, schools.
These folk could legitimately argue therefore, that they shouldn't pay tax but I say ok... choose church or state.

"Hi, this is 911 what service would you like?"
"My house is on fire"
"Theist or Atheist?"
"Theist"
"Sorry, it is an act of god and you are not covered... try praying"
That's just awesome! Sleepy

Humankind Dodgy (a total misnomer)
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes aurora's post
07-07-2012, 12:21 AM
RE: Tax the church?
My opinion is that churches should be taxed and then be able to reclaim for any public service they perform. Simple reason why, in order for a church to claim tax exemption, someone in government has to decide that it actually qualifies as a church - which is not allowed under the constitution

The secret to a happy life is lowering your expectations to the point where they are already met
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-07-2012, 10:09 AM
RE: Tax the church?
(01-07-2012 01:38 AM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  If the government took money from the church, then the church would be entitled to influencing where the government puts that money.


The church already has the most influence of any organization in America on public policy. Ask any member of Congress, or representative, if their religion plays a role in their decision making, and you are getting a yes majority of the time; that wouldn't even include the average citizen's voting.

I really can't see what the change would be. Religion is only restrained by the first amendment, but that doesn't hold back people from making decisions based on religion, and you still have to challenge laws legally, and then win the battle, to see effects of that amendment. Plus religious organizations already spend shit loads of tax-free money to prevent women from having access to abortions and contraception, and to prevent gays from being married.

Quote:The Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment of the US Constitution bars the US government from limiting the free expression of religion. By demanding church taxes, the government becomes empowered to penalize or shut down churches if they default on their payments. The US Supreme Court confirmed this in McCulloch v. Maryland (1819) when it stated: "the power to tax involves the power to destroy."


Well if they interpret "free exercise" as ability to push your beliefs onto other people, spread lies, instill fear, and collect money, it looks like we have an unconstitutional interpretation of the Constitution, irony. That part of the Constitution wasn't written to protect churches, just religion and people's personal beliefs. It was written to keep the influence of the church out of government and people's lives and the government out of people's personal beliefs, not to keep the influence of the government off of the church's back.

Quote: Churches earn their tax-exemption by contributing to the public good. Churches offer numerous social services to people in need, including soup kitchens, homeless shelters, afterschool programs for poor families, assistance to victims of domestic violence, etc. These efforts relieve government of doing work it would otherwise be obliged to undertake.

The only constitutionally valid way of taxing churches would be to tax all nonprofit charities, otherwise the government would be treating churches differently, purely because of their religious nature. This action would place undue financial pressure on the 960,000 public charities that aid and enrich US society.


I disagree with the first part fundamentally as a liberal/progressive: I believe that government > charity, and the "give the money to charities over government" idea is counterproductive. Government still has the same obligations as before, charities don't help, and the government just ends up with less money. The government could completely eliminate problems that charities attempt to fix and arguably make worse. Charities tend to provide patch fixes, while government can provide strong foundations that can prevent future decay.

Charities can keep the donations tax-free as long as they can provide that the money is being spent properly. I don't think that people that give money to charity should receive tax breaks, however.

I disagree with the second part fundamentally, maybe, as an atheist, because churches =/= nonprofit charities, in my opinion. They are religious organizations. The fact that they do "charitable" work is completely secondary; it's not by nature like with other organizations that are just charitable organizations. If a church wants to be exempt, they should have to loophole the system by setting up a non-profit charity where religion is secondary. The non-profit charity can receive the same exemptions, but the churches themselves shouldn't be able to get anything.

Quote:I would like the church to be taxed. but it's just not so black and white. If anything, the government should be able to tax preachers and ministers themselves who use donation money to live in mansions. Donations should be spent on things that are helpful to society, not to fill the pockets of snake oil salesmen.


I'm pretty sure that there are taxes in those regards right? I would hope that salaries of preachers and ministers are taxed, or money from TV shows, dvds, books, etc, are taxed. If they are cheating the system, then it looks like we have to crack down. Donations should be spent properly. If they don't report the use of the money properly, regardless of how they donations are perceived, they should be penalized, if not shut down. They are already blatantly fraudulent, you can't be even more blatantly fraudulent on top of that.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-07-2012, 12:46 PM
RE: Tax the church?




This fucking teatard don't realize that atheists are already taxed by virtue of his fucking tax exemption. ... fuckin' teatard. ...

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-07-2012, 01:03 PM
RE: Tax the church?
ROFLMAO Girly!

If the churches were taxed, they could deduct charitable donations like everyone else and would only be taxed on money they spend on themselves.

They would also be a business and could deduct business expenses like everyone else.

I certainly see nothing wrong with that, but I bet the figures that are thrown around would look different if all this were taken into account.

[Image: dobie.png]

Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: