Taxation
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12-02-2012, 06:42 PM
Taxation
I was gonna reply to Zat's thread in philosophy, Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor? However I decided the topic was a little too specific and I was thinking more generally about income tax or whatever equivalents there are in other places in the world.

In England we have three tax bands for income with people earning less than £7445 not paying any income tax. Everyone over this amount is classed in one of the following bands;

Basic Rate - 20% - On earnings between £7445 and £37400
Higher Rate - 40% - On earnings between £37400 and £150000
Additional Rate - 50% On earnings over £150000

I think this is a reasonably fair system and I don't have any particular problems with the banding.

The thing that I find strange is this makes me right-wing by English standards. My left-wing Dad thinks this is completely unfair and there should be a re-instation of the old 83% tax band for high earners.

Needless to say I think he's off his head and it ranks ranks up there with some of the worst and unfairest ideas I've ever heard.

So what are anyone's opinions? Do you think this is fair, or do you think it's far too low/high? And what are the taxes like where you live and do you agree with them? I'd love to hear how taxes work in other countries with different systems or social ideas.

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12-02-2012, 07:00 PM (This post was last modified: 12-02-2012 07:46 PM by FSM_scot.)
RE: Taxation
At the 83% tax rate someone that makes £1,000,000, after the tax is taken off is left with £140,000.
And since the average salary in the uk is between £25,000 to £30,000 per year, and the people that will receive the 83% tax rate may be left with over 4-5 times the average salary I have no sympathy for them paying so much. It's not like they will be struggling.

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12-02-2012, 07:04 PM
RE: Taxation
(12-02-2012 07:00 PM)FSM_scot Wrote:  At the 83% tax rate someone that makes £1,000,000, after the tax is taken off is left with £140,000.
And since the average salary in the uk is between £25,000 to £30,000 per year, and the people that will receive the 83% tax rate may be left with over 4-5 times the average salary I have no sypathy for them paying so much. It's not like they will be struggling.

It's not like they will be struggling but it's still unfair, it's penalising people for success. I personally don't think anyone should pay over 50%, even if they earning a billion pounds a minute. And apparently when we used to have the 83% band it applied to people over £20000 which when you consider inflation works out to about £155000 today.

By the way it's good to cross swords with you on a serious thread for a change Big Grin.

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Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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12-02-2012, 07:36 PM (This post was last modified: 12-02-2012 07:47 PM by FSM_scot.)
RE: Taxation
Yeah man, it's been a while Big Grin

When was the 82% tax rate? I did a quick search and found nothing.

Its only fair that higher earners pay more in taxes than lower earner anyway.

When it comes to people making millions 82% they are still walking away with hundreds of thousands a Year. The tax barely affects them.

Having the 82% tax for people on £20,000 per year leaves them with £3,600 per year meaning they would be better off on the brew, so it isn't workable.

For the highest earners (I'm talking hundreds of thousand of £'s to millions here) I think it's perfectly fair.

When the tax rate was that high it must have been a time when 3k was alot of money.

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12-02-2012, 08:29 PM
RE: Taxation
(12-02-2012 07:36 PM)FSM_scot Wrote:  Yeah man, it's been a while Big Grin

When was the 82% tax rate? I did a quick search and found nothing.

Its only fair that higher earners pay more in taxes than lower earner anyway.

When it comes to people making millions 82% they are still walking away with hundreds of thousands a Year. The tax barely affects them.

Having the 82% tax for people on £20,000 per year leaves them with £3,600 per year meaning they would be better off on the brew, so it isn't workable.

For the highest earners (I'm talking hundreds of thousand of £'s to millions here) I think it's perfectly fair.

When the tax rate was that high it must have been a time when 3k was alot of money.

It was at 83% from 1974 to 1979. Taking out inflation it worked out around the £155000 mark by today's standards. I'm getting the numbers from a couple of Wikipedia articles;
History Of Taxation In The United Kingdom
Taxation In The United Kingdom

To be honest I kinda expected you might be in favour of the 83% rate when I saw you'd replied, I always think of Scotland as being way further left than England, dunno if that's just me or if you feel the same?

Anyway, where are all you non-Brits? I was kinda hoping to learn something about other countries tax systems and the pros and cons compared to the taxes over here.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
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Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
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Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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13-02-2012, 12:34 AM (This post was last modified: 13-02-2012 12:37 AM by Azaraith.)
RE: Taxation
(12-02-2012 06:42 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  I was gonna reply to Zat's thread in philosophy, Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor? However I decided the topic was a little too specific and I was thinking more generally about income tax or whatever equivalents there are in other places in the world.

In England we have three tax bands for income with people earning less than £7445 not paying any income tax. Everyone over this amount is classed in one of the following bands;

Basic Rate - 20% - On earnings between £7445 and £37400
Higher Rate - 40% - On earnings between £37400 and £150000
Additional Rate - 50% On earnings over £150000

I think this is a reasonably fair system and I don't have any particular problems with the banding.

The thing that I find strange is this makes me right-wing by English standards. My left-wing Dad thinks this is completely unfair and there should be a re-instation of the old 83% tax band for high earners.

Needless to say I think he's off his head and it ranks ranks up there with some of the worst and unfairest ideas I've ever heard.

So what are anyone's opinions? Do you think this is fair, or do you think it's far too low/high? And what are the taxes like where you live and do you agree with them? I'd love to hear how taxes work in other countries with different systems or social ideas.

I think the banding idea into 3 simple categories is a good idea, but the percentages are much too high. I'd be paying $11k more in taxes in the UK than I do in the US... That's enough to keep me from considering living there by itself.


(12-02-2012 07:04 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(12-02-2012 07:00 PM)FSM_scot Wrote:  At the 83% tax rate someone that makes £1,000,000, after the tax is taken off is left with £140,000.
And since the average salary in the uk is between £25,000 to £30,000 per year, and the people that will receive the 83% tax rate may be left with over 4-5 times the average salary I have no sypathy for them paying so much. It's not like they will be struggling.

It's not like they will be struggling but it's still unfair, it's penalising people for success. I personally don't think anyone should pay over 50%, even if they earning a billion pounds a minute. And apparently when we used to have the 83% band it applied to people over £20000 which when you consider inflation works out to about £155000 today.

By the way it's good to cross swords with you on a serious thread for a change Big Grin.

Why would they bother? They'd use whatever loopholes they can to avoid paying it or they'd use their talents elsewhere. No f'ing way would I work hard enough to earn $1m/year and then settle for $140k of it after taxes. I wouldn't find it worth the bother.

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13-02-2012, 05:18 AM
RE: Taxation
Yeah you are right in that Scotland tends to be more left wing than england, for example the BNP has never gained a foothold up here (mainly because we see them for the scum that they are).

Also the biggest portion of labour voters in the uk is in Scotland(if it wasn't for us the torries would always be in power, which IMO is the real reason labour is against independence), but I don't know if thats to do with being left wing, or the intense hatred most of us have for the torries.

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13-02-2012, 06:00 AM
RE: Taxation
I get the "why would they bother" argument. But in reality, are people who are making 1m a year really working harder than the fireman who earns 32,000 or the teacher who makes 30,000? Either way they're still making almost five times as much after tax. Are they really working three times as hard? Or is what they're doing that much more important to society? Are they really going to say: "Fuck it, this isn't worth it, I'll go be a schoolteacher"?

Maybe.

Anyway, this is what Ireland looked like last time I checked:

Tax base (EUR) -----Tax (%)
0 - 32,800 --------------20%
32,801+------------------41% on base exceeding 32,800

Which is bollocks.

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13-02-2012, 07:30 AM
RE: Taxation
(13-02-2012 06:00 AM)Smooshmonster Wrote:  I get the "why would they bother" argument. But in reality, are people who are making 1m a year really working harder than the fireman who earns 32,000 or the teacher who makes 30,000? Either way they're still making almost five times as much after tax. Are they really working three times as hard? Or is what they're doing that much more important to society? Are they really going to say: "Fuck it, this isn't worth it, I'll go be a schoolteacher"?

Maybe.

Yes, they do work harder... I happen to work for a firm where the higher ups make quite a bit and I've got a pretty good taste for what they actually do. I work 55-60 hours per week and they're there as long as I am or longer sometimes. They also have unique skills that are much more rare and more difficult to develop than that of a fireman or teacher. What they are doing drives much of the growth in the economy, creating jobs, etc. Very few would say "fuck it, I'll be a schoolteacher" but many would retire earlier or pick less stressful careers, or even move to a different country.

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13-02-2012, 08:51 AM
RE: Taxation
(13-02-2012 07:30 AM)Azaraith Wrote:  
(13-02-2012 06:00 AM)Smooshmonster Wrote:  I get the "why would they bother" argument. But in reality, are people who are making 1m a year really working harder than the fireman who earns 32,000 or the teacher who makes 30,000? Either way they're still making almost five times as much after tax. Are they really working three times as hard? Or is what they're doing that much more important to society? Are they really going to say: "Fuck it, this isn't worth it, I'll go be a schoolteacher"?

Maybe.

Yes, they do work harder... I happen to work for a firm where the higher ups make quite a bit and I've got a pretty good taste for what they actually do. I work 55-60 hours per week and they're there as long as I am or longer sometimes. They also have unique skills that are much more rare and more difficult to develop than that of a fireman or teacher. What they are doing drives much of the growth in the economy, creating jobs, etc. Very few would say "fuck it, I'll be a schoolteacher" but many would retire earlier or pick less stressful careers, or even move to a different country.

Also they take more responsibility and risk. It's a huge fucking massive deal to be a CEO of a company employing lots of people. *He's* the guy - every month the buck stops with him. In small business at least it's a huge worry to have to pay your employees every month, in big business investors and shareholders are all shouting at you, and newsmen and other people are all waiting for you to fail - no one will ever do that for the same salary as some lower ranking guy - they'd rather leave all the stress and be lower ranking themselves.
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