Taxes
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
30-04-2017, 05:59 PM
RE: Taxes
I think people need to remember what taxes actually do. Yeah, I know people don't enjoy paying them because you don't get a *personal* return on your work. You don't get to buy a nice shiny toy, pay down personal debt, or send your kids to a better school. Yep, I get it. Taxes seem like you just hand your money over to the government and they burn it -- as if Uncle Sam is merely punishing you for being an American citizen.

But seriously, folks, if *everyone* incorporated, if *everyone* slithered through every loophole to reduce taxes down to nothing ...

How the *fuck* do you think the government is going to pay for the goods and services it supplies? After all, taxes are the government's income -- and what we keep wanting to do every election cycle is to give Uncle Sam a pay cut every time a new politician runs for office. Yeah, does it *really* make sense to keep undermining Uncle Sam's salary whilst the services the government needs continues to increase in cost like everything else?

Because we are not a communist nation (where the government owns all of the production and resources) the federal, state, and local governments in America have to hire contractors as if they are just another private customer. The various governments in America do not get any breaks when it comes to the ever-increasing prices of hiring private industries to manufacture goods, build our infrastructure, or maintain our military.

If we continue to cut taxes ... cut, cut, cut every election, taxes won't be the only thing that gets cut. I think we've all seen Trump's Ming the Merciless style budget he wants to pass. You know, the one that wants to do things like eliminate the Meals on Wheels program, slash funding for cancer research, defund the Center for Disease Control, damn near wipe out the Endowment for the Arts, and slash federal funding for local infrastructure projects so all of that cash can be funneled into the military.

Keep in mind that as long as we have a right-wing president, the military will remain massive and bloated (as if we're still fighting the Cold War) no matter how many Americans must suffer hardship, poverty, and a lack of healthcare. That, in fact, is one of the 14 points of fascism: When military spending remains high even when domestic problems become dire.

Like I said, everyone knows paying taxes sucks. But unless you want everything (and I do mean everything) to become privatized whereby making the maximum profit possible is the most important goal; unless you want the United States to lose its status as a First World nation and we turn into just another big shithole like some of these other countries, taxes are a very necessary evil.

On a final note, I don't know how many of you are familiar with the history of life in Europe three or four generations after the fall of the Roman Empire. For those that aren't, I'll just say this:

The impoverished peasants at the time looted much of the stone and other items from the dead city of Rome to help build their little squalor-laden villages. They used to use the Colisseum as a pen in which to keep livestock. The Roman roads, once meticulously cared-for, were by then disappearing into the dirt and sands of the former glorious empire's provinces.

I can't help but think -- surely these uneducated, superstitious, fearful peasants who were constantly on the verge of starvation, worrying about the next plague, or afraid of the next barbarian warlord raiding their hovels -- surely these peasants heard stories and legends about the great city they lived near, somehow knowing they were inhabiting the corpse of an empire they could never possibly comprehend. These descendants of mighty Rome marveled at the technology that was now well beyond their ability to replicate -- so much knowledge was lost.

Granted, we'll never get quite like that, but seriously, do we really want to end up a nation that can only wonder at former glories simply because we refused to fund the nation we call home? Just remember that, when you get angry because this or that president and this or that congress slashes funding for this program and that project because of people dodging their taxes while simultaneously raising the price of their goods and services every year, you're partly responsible. Personal greed always gets in the way of rational decision-making.

"If my God exists, then the laws in the Bible should apply to everyone. I am certain my God exists, so ..." -- words of a theocratic fascist justifying theocratic fascism.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-05-2017, 01:16 AM
RE: Taxes
(30-04-2017 02:55 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(30-04-2017 02:12 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  The big problem with this is getting a raise that bumps you up from the 10% bracket to the 25% bracket.

Remember that you only pay 25% on the amount above the bracket, not on all your salary...it’s a progressive tax bracket.

Collapsing tax brackets will screw somebody.

It's kind of hard to put a back-of-the-envelope look at this tax situation since Trump offers no real numbers, but let us try anyway.

Suppose for a single person, the standard deductable is $15,000 for a single person, and the bracket for 10% is below $75,000.

Now consider John who works in IT and earns $86,000.

His pay $86.000
- deductible - $15,000
Taxable $71,000
Tax - $7,100
Take home $79,900

Now John gets a 5% raise
He now earns $90,300 a year
Minus $15,000 deductible = $75,300
John is now in the 25% bracket, thanks to his raise
His tax now is $18,825

Before raise, take home was $79,900
After his raise, his take home is now $90,300 - $18,825, or $74,175.

That is a costly 5% raise in John's case. It cost John $5,725.

You are invited to fire up your spread sheets and check out your own reasonable scenarios. If you do not choose your tax brackets carefully, along the line somewhere it stops being sane or progressive.

Now consider this from the company's viewpoint. How big a raise do you have to give John to get him a real world 5% raise? Or is it just cheaper to outsource to some Indian company offshore?

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter
- Thomas Jefferson

Cheerful Charlie
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Cheerful Charlie's post
01-05-2017, 05:04 AM
RE: Taxes
(01-05-2017 01:16 AM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  
(30-04-2017 02:55 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Remember that you only pay 25% on the amount above the bracket, not on all your salary...it’s a progressive tax bracket.

Collapsing tax brackets will screw somebody.

It's kind of hard to put a back-of-the-envelope look at this tax situation since Trump offers no real numbers, but let us try anyway.

Suppose for a single person, the standard deductable is $15,000 for a single person, and the bracket for 10% is below $75,000.

Now consider John who works in IT and earns $86,000.

His pay $86.000
- deductible - $15,000
Taxable $71,000
Tax - $7,100
Take home $79,900

Now John gets a 5% raise
He now earns $90,300 a year
Minus $15,000 deductible = $75,300
John is now in the 25% bracket, thanks to his raise
His tax now is $18,825

Before raise, take home was $79,900
After his raise, his take home is now $90,300 - $18,825, or $74,175.

That is a costly 5% raise in John's case. It cost John $5,725.

You are invited to fire up your spread sheets and check out your own reasonable scenarios. If you do not choose your tax brackets carefully, along the line somewhere it stops being sane or progressive.

Now consider this from the company's viewpoint. How big a raise do you have to give John to get him a real world 5% raise? Or is it just cheaper to outsource to some Indian company offshore?

That's not how it works. After the raise John would still pay 10% on his taxable income <= $75000. That's $7500. He would only pay a 25% rate on taxable earning above $75000. In this case $300. The 25% tax on $300 is $75. Total tax paid $7575. John's $4300 raise would cost him an additional $475 in taxes.

Save a life. Adopt a greyhound.

[Image: anigrey.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Popeye's Pappy's post
01-05-2017, 10:20 AM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2017 10:25 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Taxes
(01-05-2017 05:04 AM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  
(01-05-2017 01:16 AM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  Collapsing tax brackets will screw somebody.

It's kind of hard to put a back-of-the-envelope look at this tax situation since Trump offers no real numbers, but let us try anyway.

Suppose for a single person, the standard deductable is $15,000 for a single person, and the bracket for 10% is below $75,000.

Now consider John who works in IT and earns $86,000.

His pay $86.000
- deductible - $15,000
Taxable $71,000
Tax - $7,100
Take home $79,900

Now John gets a 5% raise
He now earns $90,300 a year
Minus $15,000 deductible = $75,300
John is now in the 25% bracket, thanks to his raise
His tax now is $18,825

Before raise, take home was $79,900
After his raise, his take home is now $90,300 - $18,825, or $74,175.

That is a costly 5% raise in John's case. It cost John $5,725.

You are invited to fire up your spread sheets and check out your own reasonable scenarios. If you do not choose your tax brackets carefully, along the line somewhere it stops being sane or progressive.

Now consider this from the company's viewpoint. How big a raise do you have to give John to get him a real world 5% raise? Or is it just cheaper to outsource to some Indian company offshore?

That's not how it works. After the raise John would still pay 10% on his taxable income <= $75000. That's $7500. He would only pay a 25% rate on taxable earning above $75000. In this case $300. The 25% tax on $300 is $75. Total tax paid $7575. John's $4300 raise would cost him an additional $475 in taxes.

I saw a doctor on my hypogonadism forum say they were very careful not to exceed $250,000 for fear of being in a higher tax bracket and all their income being subject to the higher tax rate. I asked them where they practiced so I could avoid soliciting their services. To be fair, my idiot son thought the same thing. No son, you don't turn down a raise because it puts you in a higher tax bracket, you fucking moron.

#sigh
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like GirlyMan's post
01-05-2017, 12:40 PM
RE: Taxes
(01-05-2017 10:20 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(01-05-2017 05:04 AM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  That's not how it works. After the raise John would still pay 10% on his taxable income <= $75000. That's $7500. He would only pay a 25% rate on taxable earning above $75000. In this case $300. The 25% tax on $300 is $75. Total tax paid $7575. John's $4300 raise would cost him an additional $475 in taxes.

I saw a doctor on my hypogonadism forum say they were very careful not to exceed $250,000 for fear of being in a higher tax bracket and all their income being subject to the higher tax rate. I asked them where they practiced so I could avoid soliciting their services. To be fair, my idiot son thought the same thing. No son, you don't turn down a raise because it puts you in a higher tax bracket, you fucking moron.


Yeah...good point (and Popeye's Pappy's post clarified the tax bracket thing). There are some cases, though, where if you run your own business (like say a doctor might do) you may want to shift income between tax years to minimize your overall tax burden. My property tax deduction goes out the window, for instance, when the AMT kicks in, and I do sometimes try to shift income or expenses so that I can fully utilize those deductions and pay overall less tax between two adjacent tax years.

The AMT does actually affect tax payers in the income range you mention in really complicated/strange ways. This is because the AMT tax is essentially an entirely separate tax system with different tax rates and fewer allowed deductions--you have to do your taxes a second time and pay any difference if the AMT tax system comes up with a higher tax obligation. It's the interaction of these two separate methods of calculating tax burden (the AMT and regular income) that creates this mess for tax planning for middle to upper middle income tax payers.

But unless you have the hassle of dealing with the AMT, the income tax brackets themselves do not create perverse incentives for recognizing income/expenses in one year or another.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes BryanS's post
01-05-2017, 12:53 PM
RE: Taxes
(25-03-2017 09:01 PM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  If Trump's tax reform ends up looking like what he proposed during the run up to the election my net federal income tax rate is going to drop from 17.76% to 11.5% and save me about $6,700 a year. While that would be good for me in the short term I'm not sure how our government is going to deal with that kind of income drop over the long term.

I was just arguing this shit on another website. My mom died last month, left me an egg. I have to spread that out over 30 years, depending how long I live, I am 50. But if I made what she left me per year, working, if it were my salary and not an egg left to me, I would not bitch one bit about taxes. I do not feel sorry one bit for billionaires. I think anyone making 100k or less has more right to bitch. But especially anyone making 50k or less or 20k or less.

The problem with lowering the tax rate on the top 1% billionaires is that debt adds up over time.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-05-2017, 12:53 PM
RE: Taxes
(30-04-2017 05:59 PM)Shirina Wrote:  I think people need to remember what taxes actually do. Yeah, I know people don't enjoy paying them because you don't get a *personal* return on your work. You don't get to buy a nice shiny toy, pay down personal debt, or send your kids to a better school. Yep, I get it. Taxes seem like you just hand your money over to the government and they burn it -- as if Uncle Sam is merely punishing you for being an American citizen.

But seriously, folks, if *everyone* incorporated, if *everyone* slithered through every loophole to reduce taxes down to nothing ...

How the *fuck* do you think the government is going to pay for the goods and services it supplies? After all, taxes are the government's income -- and what we keep wanting to do every election cycle is to give Uncle Sam a pay cut every time a new politician runs for office. Yeah, does it *really* make sense to keep undermining Uncle Sam's salary whilst the services the government needs continues to increase in cost like everything else?

Because we are not a communist nation (where the government owns all of the production and resources) the federal, state, and local governments in America have to hire contractors as if they are just another private customer. The various governments in America do not get any breaks when it comes to the ever-increasing prices of hiring private industries to manufacture goods, build our infrastructure, or maintain our military.

If we continue to cut taxes ... cut, cut, cut every election, taxes won't be the only thing that gets cut. I think we've all seen Trump's Ming the Merciless style budget he wants to pass. You know, the one that wants to do things like eliminate the Meals on Wheels program, slash funding for cancer research, defund the Center for Disease Control, damn near wipe out the Endowment for the Arts, and slash federal funding for local infrastructure projects so all of that cash can be funneled into the military.

Keep in mind that as long as we have a right-wing president, the military will remain massive and bloated (as if we're still fighting the Cold War) no matter how many Americans must suffer hardship, poverty, and a lack of healthcare. That, in fact, is one of the 14 points of fascism: When military spending remains high even when domestic problems become dire.

Like I said, everyone knows paying taxes sucks. But unless you want everything (and I do mean everything) to become privatized whereby making the maximum profit possible is the most important goal; unless you want the United States to lose its status as a First World nation and we turn into just another big shithole like some of these other countries, taxes are a very necessary evil.

On a final note, I don't know how many of you are familiar with the history of life in Europe three or four generations after the fall of the Roman Empire. For those that aren't, I'll just say this:

The impoverished peasants at the time looted much of the stone and other items from the dead city of Rome to help build their little squalor-laden villages. They used to use the Colisseum as a pen in which to keep livestock. The Roman roads, once meticulously cared-for, were by then disappearing into the dirt and sands of the former glorious empire's provinces.

I can't help but think -- surely these uneducated, superstitious, fearful peasants who were constantly on the verge of starvation, worrying about the next plague, or afraid of the next barbarian warlord raiding their hovels -- surely these peasants heard stories and legends about the great city they lived near, somehow knowing they were inhabiting the corpse of an empire they could never possibly comprehend. These descendants of mighty Rome marveled at the technology that was now well beyond their ability to replicate -- so much knowledge was lost.

Granted, we'll never get quite like that, but seriously, do we really want to end up a nation that can only wonder at former glories simply because we refused to fund the nation we call home? Just remember that, when you get angry because this or that president and this or that congress slashes funding for this program and that project because of people dodging their taxes while simultaneously raising the price of their goods and services every year, you're partly responsible. Personal greed always gets in the way of rational decision-making.

While I don't disagree with you why we all need to pay taxes it needs to be fair. When a billionaire like Trump can circumvent the intent of the tax laws through loopholes then my response is fix it it or I'll do the same.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-05-2017, 12:59 PM
RE: Taxes
(01-05-2017 01:16 AM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  
(30-04-2017 02:55 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Remember that you only pay 25% on the amount above the bracket, not on all your salary...it’s a progressive tax bracket.

Collapsing tax brackets will screw somebody.

It's kind of hard to put a back-of-the-envelope look at this tax situation since Trump offers no real numbers, but let us try anyway.

Suppose for a single person, the standard deductable is $15,000 for a single person, and the bracket for 10% is below $75,000.

Now consider John who works in IT and earns $86,000.

His pay $86.000
- deductible - $15,000
Taxable $71,000
Tax - $7,100
Take home $79,900

Now John gets a 5% raise
He now earns $90,300 a year
Minus $15,000 deductible = $75,300
John is now in the 25% bracket, thanks to his raise
His tax now is $18,825

Before raise, take home was $79,900
After his raise, his take home is now $90,300 - $18,825, or $74,175.

That is a costly 5% raise in John's case. It cost John $5,725.

You are invited to fire up your spread sheets and check out your own reasonable scenarios. If you do not choose your tax brackets carefully, along the line somewhere it stops being sane or progressive.

Now consider this from the company's viewpoint. How big a raise do you have to give John to get him a real world 5% raise? Or is it just cheaper to outsource to some Indian company offshore?

Oh bullshit, of course outsourcing is easy, but it is a vicious cycle. The more jobs you lose here, the less buying power workers have. What you might initially lose in paying workers better you gain in volume of more buying power. Workers are the job creators, not the business owner. No business owner is going to higher one more person than they have to. No people coming through the door, no incentive to hire. More people coming through the door, the more demand, more demand, the more they higher.

The labor is the bulk of buying power not the business owner. The better they are paid and the better it meets the cost of living, the more people partake in the market. Better pay that meets cost of living protects the feedback loop of the owner.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Brian37's post
01-05-2017, 01:36 PM
Taxes
(01-05-2017 12:53 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  While I don't disagree with you why we all need to pay taxes it needs to be fair.
It does need to be fair. Everything under X amount is not taxed and everything above X amount should be taxed at a flat rate. There should be no tax returns or paying taxes at the end of the year. It should be all upfront and done.

Quote:When a billionaire like Trump can circumvent the intent of the tax laws through loopholes then my response is fix it it or I'll do the same.

I hire an accountant every year to find "loopholes ". If I didn't, I'd be raped. Until we have a fair system, I will continue to hire an accountant to help me in anyway legal.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-05-2017, 01:57 PM
RE: Taxes
(01-05-2017 01:36 PM)KUSA Wrote:  
(01-05-2017 12:53 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  While I don't disagree with you why we all need to pay taxes it needs to be fair.
It does need to be fair. Everything under X amount is not taxed and everything above X amount should be taxed at a flat rate. There should be no tax returns or paying taxes at the end of the year. It should be all upfront and done.

Quote:When a billionaire like Trump can circumvent the intent of the tax laws through loopholes then my response is fix it it or I'll do the same.

I hire an accountant every year to find "loopholes ". If I didn't, I'd be raped. Until we have a fair system, I will continue to hire an accountant to help me in anyway legal.

Huh? No you really cannot nor should do that because of the individual comfort level. I prefer they take the money out the entire year rather than possibly owe at the end of the year. That is easier for someone to do who has lots of money, but harder for someone struggling. One size does not fit all.

KUSA the only two classes getting raped are the middle and poor. Billionaires taking advantages of loopholes affects everyone else more than when the rest of us use them.

Look I don't know what you make, but the more you make the less you should bitch.

Again, I mentioned in another thread my mom died last month. I would of course prefer her to still be alive. But that egg she left me has to be spread out over time. I have more of a right to bitch because it has to last. But I am telling you, if I had a job making PER YEAR what she left me, instead of it being an egg left to last, I seriously would not bitch about taxes.

We had deregulation and "don't tax the rich" since Reagan started that GOP mindset. And since the pay gap has exploded and pay has not kept up with the cost of living. All the Trump/GOP policies are a continuation of Reagan and will only give us a short term illusion of a recovery which we will pay for 4 or 8 years depending.

Billionaires are not going to end up on cat food. If I made what my mom gave me per year, like I had a job, there is not one county/city in America that I could not live comfortably.

Maybe billionaires should spend more on worker pay and stop raising prices on everything. Maybe if they did that, they would get the "less dependency" they always cry about.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: