Teen Beaten to Death in New York Church
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16-10-2015, 08:11 AM
RE: Teen Beaten to Death in New York Church
We're sure it does, Jason. Most decent human beings find this tragic. Our point is not to say that Christian = beats children, but to point out that it takes a delusion of the magnitude that (usually) only religion can provide to make ordinary people behave in these ways. And we find that doubly tragic, part of why we're so ardent about arguing against such religious beliefs and in favor of logic and reason as the sole basis for decision-making.

Carl Sagan's amazing book, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark spells out the ways in which such beliefs corrupt the human mind and subvert the thinking processes. You have to swallow a lot of nonsense whole to come to the conclusion that both your sons are demon-posessed, yet a large percentage of Americans believe that demons are really a thing, and really cause people to behave differently, and really constitute a danger to us all... when in reality it is those who believe in demons who are a danger to others.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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16-10-2015, 08:26 AM
RE: Teen Beaten to Death in New York Church
(16-10-2015 08:03 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I would first start by saying that I am a Christian but it breaks my heart to hear of such things happening.

It is very sad. But there are several passages in the Bible that advocate this type of thing (especially in the OT). For example, Deuteronomy 21:18-21:

"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear."

I know some will say Jesus came and changed all of that. However, passages regarding "discipline" are reiterated in the NT. And Jesus said he never came to change the law--which if you are reading the Bible literally means that Deuteronomy 21:18-21 still stands.

I'm not knocking you as a Christian, I was a Christian and an Irish Catholic before that. Many of my friends and family are still Christian/Catholic. I just wish at some point, theists would stop defending the Bible (and picking out only the *good* passages) and realize that it truly is a violent book. Unfortunately, if you put a book like that up on a pedestal and adhere to all of its principles, it's really not that shocking that violence and death are an outcome at some point.
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16-10-2015, 08:42 AM
RE: Teen Beaten to Death in New York Church
(15-10-2015 06:23 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  This has nothing at all to do with guns -- anymore than it has anything to do with churches.

That depends on what denotation of church you mean. Of course it had nothing to do with the building it happened in, but on the other hand, it had everything to do with this body of believers and their creed. That group of believers is a church, too.
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16-10-2015, 08:52 AM
RE: Teen Beaten to Death in New York Church
(16-10-2015 08:42 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(15-10-2015 06:23 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  This has nothing at all to do with guns -- anymore than it has anything to do with churches.

That depends on what denotation of church you mean. Of course it had nothing to do with the building it happened in, but on the other hand, it had everything to do with this body of believers and their creed. That group of believers is a church, too.
I was of course referring to the building.

Inanimate objects don't do things -- people have to make them do things.

That's why they're called "inanimate".....

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16-10-2015, 10:20 AM
RE: Teen Beaten to Death in New York Church
(16-10-2015 08:26 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(16-10-2015 08:03 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I would first start by saying that I am a Christian but it breaks my heart to hear of such things happening.

It is very sad. But there are several passages in the Bible that advocate this type of thing (especially in the OT). For example, Deuteronomy 21:18-21:

"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear."

I know some will say Jesus came and changed all of that. However, passages regarding "discipline" are reiterated in the NT. And Jesus said he never came to change the law--which if you are reading the Bible literally means that Deuteronomy 21:18-21 still stands.

I'm not knocking you as a Christian, I was a Christian and an Irish Catholic before that. Many of my friends and family are still Christian/Catholic. I just wish at some point, theists would stop defending the Bible (and picking out only the *good* passages) and realize that it truly is a violent book. Unfortunately, if you put a book like that up on a pedestal and adhere to all of its principles, it's really not that shocking that violence and death are an outcome at some point.
You are exactly right. Things like this happen when people cherry pick scripture without looking at the whole. Many have heard the saying "he without sin may cast the first stone"... and "judge and ye be judged". There is a verse that stands out to me and it was about the specific issue at hand. It roughly said that it is the law that brings death but it is the spirit that brings life. Technically according to the bible, the boys deserved to be beaten for their sin. But Jesus wanted Christians to show people mercy not judgment.
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16-10-2015, 10:38 AM
RE: Teen Beaten to Death in New York Church
(16-10-2015 10:20 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Technically according to the bible, the boys deserved to be beaten for their sin.

Do you not see that as a problem?

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16-10-2015, 10:41 AM
RE: Teen Beaten to Death in New York Church
(16-10-2015 10:20 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(16-10-2015 08:26 AM)jennybee Wrote:  It is very sad. But there are several passages in the Bible that advocate this type of thing (especially in the OT). For example, Deuteronomy 21:18-21:

"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear."

I know some will say Jesus came and changed all of that. However, passages regarding "discipline" are reiterated in the NT. And Jesus said he never came to change the law--which if you are reading the Bible literally means that Deuteronomy 21:18-21 still stands.

I'm not knocking you as a Christian, I was a Christian and an Irish Catholic before that. Many of my friends and family are still Christian/Catholic. I just wish at some point, theists would stop defending the Bible (and picking out only the *good* passages) and realize that it truly is a violent book. Unfortunately, if you put a book like that up on a pedestal and adhere to all of its principles, it's really not that shocking that violence and death are an outcome at some point.
You are exactly right. Things like this happen when people cherry pick scripture without looking at the whole. Many have heard the saying "he without sin may cast the first stone"... and "judge and ye be judged". There is a verse that stands out to me and it was about the specific issue at hand. It roughly said that it is the law that brings death but it is the spirit that brings life. Technically according to the bible, the boys deserved to be beaten for their sin. But Jesus wanted Christians to show people mercy not judgment.

This is what I mean by cherry picking lol

In some passages, Jesus was a hippie--spreading peace, love and kindness. In other passages, I'm sorry, but he was kind of a dick.

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Matthew 15:4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ (sound familiar? i.e. Deut. 21:18-21)

Matthew 10:34: Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

You are right, hippie Jesus preached mercy, but Jesus has a mean streak as well. this is what he says about the law (Matt. 5:17-20).

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven. I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

So unless you do what Jesus says, you're screwed because if you don't go to Heaven, you go to hell...to be punished...for eternity. That is showing mercy? That is love? That is kindness?
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16-10-2015, 10:46 AM
RE: Teen Beaten to Death in New York Church
(16-10-2015 10:38 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(16-10-2015 10:20 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Technically according to the bible, the boys deserved to be beaten for their sin.

Do you not see that as a problem?
I do. The problem is the concept of grace and mercy. Jesus said repeatedly about showing mercy over judgment. Because according to Christians everyone is a sinner and all sin carries the same penalty...death. If we only focused on the law in the old testament everyone (including Christians should be put to death. The penalty for adultery in the old testament was stoning to death. However Jesus said that ever to look at a woman with lust in your heart is adultery. Was Jesus suggesting that we should be stoned for looking at a woman with lust? No. Rather he was teaching to show mercy and not to judge because we are no better than the one we judge.
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16-10-2015, 10:58 AM
RE: Teen Beaten to Death in New York Church
(16-10-2015 10:46 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(16-10-2015 10:38 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Do you not see that as a problem?
I do. The problem is the concept of grace and mercy. Jesus said repeatedly about showing mercy over judgment. Because according to Christians everyone is a sinner and all sin carries the same penalty...death. If we only focused on the law in the old testament everyone (including Christians should be put to death. The penalty for adultery in the old testament was stoning to death. However Jesus said that ever to look at a woman with lust in your heart is adultery. Was Jesus suggesting that we should be stoned for looking at a woman with lust? No. Rather he was teaching to show mercy and not to judge because we are no better than the one we judge.

Right. but the Bible also has this to say about adultery:

Matthew 19:9 - And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except [it be] for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

So if you are following along with the Bible--no divorce unless there is fornication. Where is the part about a woman being physically abused in a marriage as a cause for divorce?? If we are reading God's words literally and exactly, physical abuse should not be a reason to end a marriage.

A woman should be under her husband's control:

Romans 7:2--For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to [her] husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of [her] husband.

Here's the full passage you quoted on adultery/lust in your heart (Matt. 5:27-30):

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell."

Hell as punishment for not doing what Jesus/God says. That is not love or kindness. Would you do that to your own child?
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16-10-2015, 11:35 AM
RE: Teen Beaten to Death in New York Church
(16-10-2015 10:58 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(16-10-2015 10:46 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I do. The problem is the concept of grace and mercy. Jesus said repeatedly about showing mercy over judgment. Because according to Christians everyone is a sinner and all sin carries the same penalty...death. If we only focused on the law in the old testament everyone (including Christians should be put to death. The penalty for adultery in the old testament was stoning to death. However Jesus said that ever to look at a woman with lust in your heart is adultery. Was Jesus suggesting that we should be stoned for looking at a woman with lust? No. Rather he was teaching to show mercy and not to judge because we are no better than the one we judge.

Right. but the Bible also has this to say about adultery:

Matthew 19:9 - And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except [it be] for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

So if you are following along with the Bible--no divorce unless there is fornication. Where is the part about a woman being physically abused in a marriage as a cause for divorce?? If we are reading God's words literally and exactly, physical abuse should not be a reason to end a marriage.

A woman should be under her husband's control:

Romans 7:2--For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to [her] husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of [her] husband.

Here's the full passage you quoted on adultery/lust in your heart (Matt. 5:27-30):

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell."

Hell as punishment for not doing what Jesus/God says. That is not love or kindness. Would you do that to your own child?
I am familiar with the scripture you mentioned very well. It's another example of how scripture gets distorted and taken out of context. Believe me when I say that it is frustrating when people pick and choose what scripture to follow and what not to follow. Especially when the scripture gets taken out of context in order to defend evil behavior. Now you made three very good points and I agree that many use those scriptures to justify ungodly behavior so let's try to break each one down simply.

1. Yes, the bible does say for wives to submit to their husbands. However there is another side to it. I would ask you to read ephesians 5. There are specific instructions that husbands must follow. Some of these include to raise her up without blemish. To love her like Jesus loved the church and gave his life for it. If a woman knew in her heart that her husband was willing to die for her and knew that everything he did was to protect her and to care for her, what woman would not willingly submit to their husband? Now another issues is the word submit. Submission in this scripture does not mean slavery. Rather it means to support. There is definitely a lot more to the scripture but for the sake of brevity I will move on.

Secondly is the statement about divorce. Jesus made absolutely clear that the only justification for divorce is sexual immorality. If a husband is abusive then the wife may leave to a safe place and pray for her husband but she cannot divorce him. The marriage vow does say for better or for worse right?

Now for the last part. God does not want anyone to go to hell. That is why Jesus was sacrificed on the cross. His blood purified everyone of their sin. So when people are sent to hell it is not necessarily because of their sin, but rather because that person chose to reject God's salvation. People are given a choice. It's called free will. The bible says that God weeps because so many people are thrown into hell because they chose to reject God.

Now I understand that this is an atheist forum and a made a lot of references to a book that you do not believe. I am not trying to convert you are judge you. Rather I am simply answering very good questions on what is actually taught in the bible in order to help you understand what Christians believe and how they are supposed to act. Thank you.
(16-10-2015 10:58 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(16-10-2015 10:46 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I do. The problem is the concept of grace and mercy. Jesus said repeatedly about showing mercy over judgment. Because according to Christians everyone is a sinner and all sin carries the same penalty...death. If we only focused on the law in the old testament everyone (including Christians should be put to death. The penalty for adultery in the old testament was stoning to death. However Jesus said that ever to look at a woman with lust in your heart is adultery. Was Jesus suggesting that we should be stoned for looking at a woman with lust? No. Rather he was teaching to show mercy and not to judge because we are no better than the one we judge.

Right. but the Bible also has this to say about adultery:

Matthew 19:9 - And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except [it be] for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

So if you are following along with the Bible--no divorce unless there is fornication. Where is the part about a woman being physically abused in a marriage as a cause for divorce?? If we are reading God's words literally and exactly, physical abuse should not be a reason to end a marriage.

A woman should be under her husband's control:

Romans 7:2--For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to [her] husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of [her] husband.

Here's the full passage you quoted on adultery/lust in your heart (Matt. 5:27-30):

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell."

Hell as punishment for not doing what Jesus/God says. That is not love or kindness. Would you do that to your own child?
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