Teen Beaten to Death in New York Church
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16-10-2015, 12:00 PM
RE: Teen Beaten to Death in New York Church
(16-10-2015 10:46 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(16-10-2015 10:38 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Do you not see that as a problem?
I do. The problem is the concept of grace and mercy.

No, the problem is that you accept that people deserve to be beaten. Your religion is based on monstrously immoral precepts. No amount of shellac over it will cover the fact that the core ideology is horrifying.

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16-10-2015, 12:03 PM
RE: Teen Beaten to Death in New York Church
(16-10-2015 12:00 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(16-10-2015 10:46 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I do. The problem is the concept of grace and mercy.

No, the problem is that you accept that people deserve to be beaten. Your religion is based on monstrously immoral precepts. No amount of shellac over it will cover the fact that the core ideology is horrifying.
Not at all. Women do not deserved to be beaten. It is just not grounds for divorce. The wife should get away from him and pray for him. Like I said read the instructions of a husband on ephesians 5.
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16-10-2015, 12:06 PM
RE: Teen Beaten to Death in New York Church
Ephesians 5:21-33

Instructions for Christian Households
21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”[c] 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
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16-10-2015, 12:13 PM
RE: Teen Beaten to Death in New York Church
(16-10-2015 08:52 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(16-10-2015 08:42 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  That depends on what denotation of church you mean. Of course it had nothing to do with the building it happened in, but on the other hand, it had everything to do with this body of believers and their creed. That group of believers is a church, too.
I was of course referring to the building.

Inanimate objects don't do things -- people have to make them do things.

That's why they're called "inanimate".....

Of course. But I'll be damned if the church didn't have something to do with it. Rotten bastards.
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16-10-2015, 12:13 PM
RE: Teen Beaten to Death in New York Church
But that’s just the thing: the Bible can be distorted to say whatever you want it to say. There are good passages and there are bad passages. I would hope if people are going to read it and follow it they only follow the good passages, but unfortunately that is not always what happens. People use the Bible to further their own agendas by using God as a backing to justify all kinds of horrific acts. Why would a loving God allow such contradiction and ability to distort passages in his *perfect* Word? There are two reasons we can consider. The first is God works in mysterious ways. The second is that the Bible was not god-breathed and was written by several different people, each with their own agenda and/or belief system. Which makes more logical sense to you?

I have read Ephesians 5. I have read the entire Bible actually. I read it several times over as a Christian and again as an atheist. I know some Christians like to believe that atheists have never touched a Bible--but in reality, many of us have and are former believers. Ephesians 5 is the same passage that mentions the following:

Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body. As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything. Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord.

You wrote: “If a woman knew in her heart that her husband was willing to die for her and knew that everything he did was to protect her and to care for her, what woman would not willingly submit to their husband?” You’re kidding right? I would rather live my own life and protect myself if “protection” meant I had to submit to my husband.

Submission means to allow someone else to make decisions for you. It means to do what someone else says without question.

You wrote: “If a husband is abusive then the wife may leave to a safe place and pray for her husband but she cannot divorce him. The marriage vow does say for better or for worse right?” Wow. Just wow.

A loving father would not allow his children to be punished for rejecting him. Period.
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16-10-2015, 12:16 PM
RE: Teen Beaten to Death in New York Church
(16-10-2015 10:20 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(16-10-2015 08:26 AM)jennybee Wrote:  It is very sad. But there are several passages in the Bible that advocate this type of thing (especially in the OT). For example, Deuteronomy 21:18-21:

"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear."

I know some will say Jesus came and changed all of that. However, passages regarding "discipline" are reiterated in the NT. And Jesus said he never came to change the law--which if you are reading the Bible literally means that Deuteronomy 21:18-21 still stands.

I'm not knocking you as a Christian, I was a Christian and an Irish Catholic before that. Many of my friends and family are still Christian/Catholic. I just wish at some point, theists would stop defending the Bible (and picking out only the *good* passages) and realize that it truly is a violent book. Unfortunately, if you put a book like that up on a pedestal and adhere to all of its principles, it's really not that shocking that violence and death are an outcome at some point.
You are exactly right. Things like this happen when people cherry pick scripture without looking at the whole. Many have heard the saying "he without sin may cast the first stone"... and "judge and ye be judged". There is a verse that stands out to me and it was about the specific issue at hand. It roughly said that it is the law that brings death but it is the spirit that brings life. Technically according to the bible, the boys deserved to be beaten for their sin. But Jesus wanted Christians to show people mercy not judgment.

The idea that physical punishment can expel moral failings is obnoxious on its face. Moral failings can only be corrected by consideration, not being beaten to death, technically "right" though that might be by Christian lights.
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16-10-2015, 12:19 PM
RE: Teen Beaten to Death in New York Church
Exactly.
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16-10-2015, 12:19 PM
RE: Teen Beaten to Death in New York Church
(16-10-2015 10:46 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(16-10-2015 10:38 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Do you not see that as a problem?
I do. The problem is the concept of grace and mercy. Jesus said repeatedly about showing mercy over judgment. Because according to Christians everyone is a sinner and all sin carries the same penalty...death. If we only focused on the law in the old testament everyone (including Christians should be put to death. The penalty for adultery in the old testament was stoning to death. However Jesus said that ever to look at a woman with lust in your heart is adultery. Was Jesus suggesting that we should be stoned for looking at a woman with lust? No. Rather he was teaching to show mercy and not to judge because we are no better than the one we judge.

Death is still the penalty even for those who have accepted Jesus's alleged sacrifice and redemption.

What difference, then, is there between believing and not believing, aside from a putative punishment in the afterlife which has yet to be demonstrated?
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16-10-2015, 12:40 PM
RE: Teen Beaten to Death in New York Church
Death is still the penalty even for those who have accepted Jesus's alleged sacrifice and redemption.

What difference, then, is there between believing and not believing, aside from a putative punishment in the afterlife which has yet to be demonstrated?
[/quote]

I apologize but I am not quite sure I understand your question. Could you explain a little more please.
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16-10-2015, 12:51 PM
RE: Teen Beaten to Death in New York Church
(16-10-2015 12:19 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Exactly.

At which point one may well ask oneself that if the Bible is so magnificently wrong in this one instance, what else might it prescribe that is obnoxious?
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