Teeter Tottering on believing.
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14-12-2011, 08:38 AM
RE: Teeter Tottering on believing.
Personally I discard all organised religion from my internal musings on the possibility of the existence of God. By this I mean I never consider the possibility of the Christian God existing because the Bible is so clearly ridiculous it makes a mockery of everything. I consider whether a non-specific higher power exists, kinda like you've already said. I think that is the only way to decide where you stand on the whole atheism/theism thing.

Making a decision on whether God exists based on Christianity is like making a decision on whether aliens exist based on ET.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
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Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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14-12-2011, 08:50 AM (This post was last modified: 14-12-2011 09:26 AM by kingschosen.)
RE: Teeter Tottering on believing.
(14-12-2011 06:16 AM)Malleus Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 11:42 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  1) Can't do... or choose not to do. There is a difference.

Judges 1:19
Quote:And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

The context there is that god told the children of Israel to go ahead and slaughter all Canaanites and take all their lands because he (god) will be with them at all times and they are sure to succeed.

Apparently when it comes to iron chariots, god doesn't see *that* coming and he fails. He doesn't choose to fail, he just fails.

You're going to have to do better than that. Firstly, the KJV's wording makes it sound like the LORD couldn't drive out the chariots when, in fact, it was Judah that could not. Let's take a look at a more accurate, more literal modern translation:

(NASB) Now the LORD was with Judah, and they took possession of the hill country; but they could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley because they had iron chariots.

Now, if you'd taken the time to read the Bible (forgive me if my assumption is wrong) you would not have even spouted out the verse if you had read the ENTIRE story.

The OT revolves around a pattern with the Jews. God promises. Jews complain. It seems like the promise isn't going to be fulfilled. Jews turn to God. God comes out of nowhere and fulfills his promise.

The original promise is made in Joshua 17:18 - but the hill country shall be yours. For though it is a forest, you shall [a]clear it, and to its [b]farthest borders it shall be yours; for you shall [c]drive out the Canaanites, even though they have chariots of iron and though they are strong.”

Judah fails in driving out the chariots. BUT DON'T STOP READING (I know it's inconvenient and you can't take things out of context, but we have to be fair about this).

Judges 4 - God chose two judges to complete His promise He made (Deborah and Barak).

Verses 12-16
12 Then they told Sisera that Barak the son of Abinoam had gone up to Mount Tabor. 13 Sisera called together all his chariots, nine hundred iron chariots, and all the people who were with him, from Harosheth-hagoyim to the river Kishon. 14 Deborah said to Barak, “Arise! For this is the day in which the LORD has given Sisera into your hands; [g]behold, the LORD has gone out before you.” So Barak went down from Mount Tabor with ten thousand men following him. 15 The LORD [h]routed Sisera and all his chariots and all his army with the edge of the sword before Barak; and Sisera alighted from his chariot and fled away on foot. 16 But Barak pursued the chariots and the army as far as Harosheth-hagoyim, and all the army of Sisera fell by the edge of the sword; not even one was left.

Being ignorant of the story is no excuse. If you are going to make accusation, then you are held accountable for all the evidence. It's a simple matter of reading. This is why many atheists study the Bible. You're out of context passage may work on a typical Christian, but it's not going to fly here.
....yes, Chas?

(I bet I called it.)
(nope)
(Although, he did post next.)
(Granted, I think he's probably just tired of banging his head against the wall with me.)
(<3 Chas)

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14-12-2011, 09:24 AM
RE: Teeter Tottering on believing.
(14-12-2011 08:38 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  Making a decision on whether God exists based on Christianity is like making a decision on whether aliens exist based on ET.

What? Don't they???Sad

Seriously, though, that prompted this thought:
Gods are very, very unlikely to exist, based on the complete lack of evidence for and the strong evidence against.
Aliens are very, very likely to exist, based on the evidence of biology and astronomy.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-12-2011, 10:05 AM (This post was last modified: 14-12-2011 10:09 AM by Malleus.)
RE: Teeter Tottering on believing.
@kingschosen:

Well, yes, but no (Christians are familiar with this notion).

It reminds me of a joke

Listener: I heard that John has won the Police prize yesterday. They gave him a motorbike.
Radio DJ: Generally you're right. It was not a motorbike, but a bicycle and they didn't give it to him. They took it from him.

Generally God fulfilled his promise, but Judah didn't win, he lost. The Canaanites weren't slain, they stayed alive and, at a later time, when Israel grew stronger, they paid tribute (Judges 1.28).Israelis didn't get the lands which were promised to them, but they got to be neighbors with their enemies. Looks nothing like failure to me.

And yes, they slew the Canaanites eventually... generations later when they didn't ask for god's opinion any more, they acted upon memories of god's will when a lady (Deborah) decided to take matters in her own hands and eventually they had victory. God wins by self-fulfilling prophecy. Hurray.

God fails. Deborah wins. Don't mess with women.

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

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14-12-2011, 10:26 AM
RE: Teeter Tottering on believing.
(14-12-2011 10:05 AM)Malleus Wrote:  @kingschosen:

Well, yes, but no (Christians are familiar with this notion).

It reminds me of a joke

Listener: I heard that John has won the Police prize yesterday. They gave him a motorbike.
Radio DJ: Generally you're right. It was not a motorbike, but a bicycle and they didn't give it to him. They took it from him.

Generally God fulfilled his promise, but Judah didn't win, he lost. The Canaanites weren't slain, they stayed alive and, at a later time, when Israel grew stronger, they paid tribute (Judges 1.28).Israelis didn't get the lands which were promised to them, but they got to be neighbors with their enemies. Looks nothing like failure to me.

And yes, they slew the Canaanites eventually... generations later when they didn't ask for god's opinion any more, they acted upon memories of god's will when a lady (Deborah) decided to take matters in her own hands and eventually they had victory. God wins by self-fulfilling profecy. Hurray.

God fails. Deborah wins. Don't mess with women.

Joshua 17:17-18
17 Joshua spoke to the house of Joseph, to Ephraim and Manasseh, saying, “You are a numerous people and have great power; you shall not have one lot only, 18 but the hill country shall be yours. For though it is a forest, you shall [n]clear it, and to its [o]farthest borders it shall be yours; for you shall [p]drive out the Canaanites, even though they have chariots of iron and though they are strong.”

There was no promise that Judah, right then, would win. There is only the promise that they would drive out the Canaanites and would take the hill country.

God fulfills this promise by appointing Deb and Barak. This is made clear.

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14-12-2011, 10:54 AM
RE: Teeter Tottering on believing.
Mhm, check this out:

Quote:And the LORD said, Judah shall go up: behold, I have delivered the land into his hand
(Judges 1.2)

This was the promise made by god that Judah would win, which he didn't.

Now, here's what Deborah (generations later) says:

Quote:And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman
(Judges 4.9) - Sisera was the leader of the valley and iron chariots owner during Deborah's generation.

God says, it fails. Deborah says, it happens. Deborah rullz.

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

I would never shake a baby unless the recipe requires it.
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14-12-2011, 11:04 AM
RE: Teeter Tottering on believing.
(14-12-2011 10:54 AM)Malleus Wrote:  Mhm, check this out:

Quote:And the LORD said, Judah shall go up: behold, I have delivered the land into his hand
(Judges 1.2)

This was the promise made by god that Judah would win, which he didn't.

Now, here's what Deborah (generations later) says:

Quote:And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman
(Judges 4.9) - Sisera was the leader of the valley and iron chariots owner during Deborah's generation.

God says, it fails. Deborah says, it happens. Deborah rullz.

smh

Judges 1:2 is about the Battle of Bezek. Please stop taking verses out of context.

As for Debbie backtrack a few verses to 6 to see what she says:
Now she sent and summoned Barak the son of Abinoam from Kedesh-naphtali, and said to him, “[c]Behold, the LORD, the God of Israel, has commanded, ‘Go and march to Mount Tabor, and take with you ten thousand men from the sons of Naphtali and from the sons of Zebulun.

Please stop cherry picking verses.

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14-12-2011, 11:53 AM
RE: Teeter Tottering on believing.
(14-12-2011 09:24 AM)Chas Wrote:  What? Don't they???Sad

Seriously, though, that prompted this thought:
Gods are very, very unlikely to exist, based on the complete lack of evidence for and the strong evidence against.
Aliens are very, very likely to exist, based on the evidence of biology and astronomy.

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't implying that God's existence was anywhere near as likely as an aliens.

I was meaning that people shouldn't reject all concept of God because of the Bible, they should reject all concept of God because it makes no sense. It's about being an atheist for the right reasons Big Grin.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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14-12-2011, 01:19 PM
RE: Teeter Tottering on believing.
@kingschosen

Oh, *now* when you're using screen-sized letters you're making way more sense. Personally I think I'm making progress when theists start shouting at me.

First of all you have some nerve to accuse me of cherry picking when that is exactly what you do. And let me explain to you how. When god promises to people that they will win some lands that they really want and they follow that promise and they get no result and they die before getting what they were promised, that is textbook failure to live up to a promise.

The fact that, by *cherry picking*, you were able to show me that their great-great grandchildren did get those lands at some point has no bearing on the fact that god did not fulfill his promise to their great-great grandparents.

When I'm homeless and I pray for a house and god says "yes, go get that one" and the police throws me out at gun point for trespassing, I honestly couldn't care less if my great-great children get to own that particular house some day after I die. God still *couldn't* give me that house because the police had guns.

On the other hand, as I said, goals can be achieved within societies with self-fulfilling prophecies with or without a real god. Historically, when an imperialist nation manages to hold some fertile grounds for many generations, they build up enough manpower, resources and a strategy to finally stand a chance against some hostile neighbors who used to be superior when they arrived there. And I can argue that god is useless in front of cold facts.

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

I would never shake a baby unless the recipe requires it.
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14-12-2011, 05:47 PM
RE: Teeter Tottering on believing.
(14-12-2011 01:19 PM)Malleus Wrote:  @kingschosen

Oh, *now* when you're using screen-sized letters you're making way more sense. Personally I think I'm making progress when theists start shouting at me.

First of all you have some nerve to accuse me of cherry picking when that is exactly what you do. And let me explain to you how. When god promises to people that they will win some lands that they really want and they follow that promise and they get no result and they die before getting what they were promised, that is textbook failure to live up to a promise.

The fact that, by *cherry picking*, you were able to show me that their great-great grandchildren did get those lands at some point has no bearing on the fact that god did not fulfill his promise to their great-great grandparents.

When I'm homeless and I pray for a house and god says "yes, go get that one" and the police throws me out at gun point for trespassing, I honestly couldn't care less if my great-great children get to own that particular house some day after I die. God still *couldn't* give me that house because the police had guns.

On the other hand, as I said, goals can be achieved within societies with self-fulfilling prophecies with or without a real god. Historically, when an imperialist nation manages to hold some fertile grounds for many generations, they build up enough manpower, resources and a strategy to finally stand a chance against some hostile neighbors who used to be superior when they arrived there. And I can argue that god is useless in front of cold facts.

Not yelling... emphasizing. And, God never told that generation that His promise would be fulfilled. Judah isn't a person. It's a tribe. Besides, your arguments are getting silly. Just admit you're wrong and be done with it.

You're first argument was "God failed". debunked
Then you change your argument to "Canaanites weren't slain". debunked
Then you change it to "Deborah did it herself". debunked
Then you change it to "lulz gawd waited to do his promise so that makes it untrue". Which isn't even a valid argument.

PS - your "cherry picking" accusation against me makes no sense.

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