Terms for debates
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23-08-2015, 08:52 PM
RE: Terms for debates
(22-08-2015 08:54 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(22-08-2015 09:01 AM)7R0MM3L Wrote:  I have started a vocabulary list for the purposes of, my own knowledge, & engaging theists in more thoughtful, & honest discussions. The most obvious way I can think to help myself avoid murky language is to have as concise an understanding of what a theist may mean, or think my words to mean, as possible. The word "belief," for example, came to mind when I first thought this was a worthwhile project.

I'm using definitions that I find to be the most relevant to what I often hear others say, as well as what comes out of my mouth. I am only a few words into my, still growing, list, & am concerned about engaging, actually or perceptibly, in some form of bias by choosing a select (or select set of) definition(s). Is this concern warranted, or am I just being silly with worry?

Your concern is absolutely warranted. Different religions view the world in a very different light. You should be able to know that people of different backgrounds may or may not have a concept of original sin, or really care about whether or not the stories in the bible are literal or parable.

(22-08-2015 09:01 AM)7R0MM3L Wrote:  For now I'll share my current list of less complicated terms, & am looking for any advice, &/ or criticisms, you all may have on the terms I've selected, haven't gotten to, &/ or may have overlooked. Some of these I already have a grasp on, but thought it to be a good exercise in precision to include them.

Theists come in many flavors.... Given that you didn't specify one religion over another, it seems that you're considering that you may have discussions with any kind of theist. I can't help you with understanding the Christian view of these words, but here are my two-cents from a Jewish perspective.


Faith - Not important. One needs faith in absolutely nothing, and having faith can be considered to be dangerous. (A little faith in a few topics will be okay, I guess.)

Belief - Same as faith. It's a personal choice to believe something that you can't touch, see or personally confirm, but this is not tantamount to being a productive, practicing Jew. In Judaism, what you do is a lot more important than what you believe.

Hope - We all want to have hope, don't we?

Natural - We live in a natural world, governed by the laws of nature.

Supernatural - Not real. This is a really big topic and more advanced subtopics exist on this matter. But in the sense that I think you're talking about, like ghosts or talking to your deceased relative isn't viewed as being real. It's actually laughed at, and never even privately considered possible.

Reality - Questionable depending on which aspect of Judaism you're studying.

Exist - Same as reality.

Obstinate - This doesn't seem like a religious term.... is it?

Evidence - Evidence in what exactly?

Theory - Theory of what? The theory of evolution? 100% kosher. I have a few things to say about theories and Judaism, all of which are TL/DR. In short, A Jew's personal belief in how the world came to be will not impact anything whatsoever. They are free to believe that the world is very old, or very young, and won't be ostracized, ridiculed or excommunicated. Jews have been contemplating a old universe model for hundreds of years. One Jewish sage (who I think lived about 500 years ago) calculated the age of the universe as being some 13 or 14 billion years old, and also suggested that the universe would die out in another handful of billion years.

Benevolent - This isn't a religious term.... that I'm aware of?

Science -Science is okay! There is no reason to be afraid of it. Go out and science, everyone!

Pseudoscience - Not a Jewish issue.

Miracle - Perfectly timed acts within the laws of nature.

And finally, the rest of your list seem like religious terms, but I don't think Judaism has anything special to say about them.

Omnipotent
Omniscient
Deist
Gnostic
Agnostic
Spirit/ Spirituality
Phenomenon
Mind
Consciousness
Religion
Philosophy
Cult

I am planning on an eventual broad range of theistic encounters, but am starting with Christianity due to its saturation in my current living area.

Thank you very much for inserting some Jewish context, & overall input.
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23-08-2015, 08:54 PM
RE: Terms for debates
(23-08-2015 06:59 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(22-08-2015 09:49 PM)Banjo Wrote:  However, most I have seen here are not interested in real debate. They may start off that way and then they get into the jesus said stuff. From that point it is a waste of time.

It isn't for his sake, it's for the people questioning their beliefs who are reading it. They see him making grandiose claims and avoiding any and all requests to back up those claims with even the slightest evidence. They also see that his anti-science arguments are outdated or quote-mined or otherwise easily debunked. If that gets them thinking about why they should believe what they've been told it is valuable.

Well I do not think one should over estimate one's importance. How many non members do you think read this stuff? Normally I see so and so, this other member and maybe "guest". For all I know the guest is a member who had yet to log in.

If one thinks they are writing for a great many, or even many, I think they are wrong. Usually it is simply the people involved in the dialogue. And if the protagonist is not bothering to read the responses (As so often seems to be the case) what is the point?

Like I said before, if, the person actually debates that is a different story. Take Alla for example.
There is no point debating Alla (who I believe is a troll anyway). No matter what one says it always comes back to this thing Jesus is supposed to have said. That is not dialogue. That is dogma. To debate with a dogmatic person is a waste of time because they are fanatics.

In another religion they'd likely blow themselves up in a crowded market.

I am sorry if I seem cynical. But as far as I have been able to gether in the 35 years I have been doing this, there isn't much hope.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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23-08-2015, 09:05 PM
RE: Terms for debates
(22-08-2015 09:06 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  Arguably in any debate we should be actively seeking out words that the two sides disagree on and eliminating them from the discussion. Only we speak with words whose meaning is agreed and understood by both sides can we communicate effectively and resolve differences.

I see your point. I think that's a good addition to my motivations, because I can only contribute to what terms are, or are not, used in a discussion if I have relevant definitions to support their usage.
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23-08-2015, 09:32 PM
RE: Terms for debates
(23-08-2015 06:59 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(22-08-2015 09:49 PM)Banjo Wrote:  However, most I have seen here are not interested in real debate. They may start off that way and then they get into the jesus said stuff. From that point it is a waste of time.

It isn't for his sake, it's for the people questioning their beliefs who are reading it. They see him making grandiose claims and avoiding any and all requests to back up those claims with even the slightest evidence. They also see that his anti-science arguments are outdated or quote-mined or otherwise easily debunked. If that gets them thinking about why they should believe what they've been told it is valuable.

Yes, I agree. Do I hope I can spark some cognition in a debate opponent? Yes, but I know better than to expect that. I'm more interested in the person, or people as the case may be, who may happen to spectate, & what new, new to them, or new take on an old, argument that does ignite more thought. I'm not foolish enough to think this will happen often, as I anticipate the majority of my debates will be public in a small way- but I'm not about to let that stop me from trying. At the absolute least, people should be challenged on wild claims about objective reality.
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25-08-2015, 08:57 AM
RE: Terms for debates
(23-08-2015 08:39 PM)7R0MM3L Wrote:  
(23-08-2015 08:44 AM)julep Wrote:  I would propose a few more terms for your list:

Ethics
Morals
Sin
Error
Forgiveness
Justice
Judgment

I had not considered 'justice,' & am curious why 'error' is on the list. Would you care to elaborate on the reason for that specific term? Thank you for your input.

I put error on the list because to me it's on the spectrum of what a black and white thinker might call sin. Also a concept that comes up in discussions of sins that aren't sins anymore or reinterpretations of scriptures.

It's interesting to me how we get from error to sin.
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25-08-2015, 03:18 PM
RE: Terms for debates
(25-08-2015 08:57 AM)julep Wrote:  
(23-08-2015 08:39 PM)7R0MM3L Wrote:  I had not considered 'justice,' & am curious why 'error' is on the list. Would you care to elaborate on the reason for that specific term? Thank you for your input.

I put error on the list because to me it's on the spectrum of what a black and white thinker might call sin. Also a concept that comes up in discussions of sins that aren't sins anymore or reinterpretations of scriptures.

It's interesting to me how we get from error to sin.

I have yet to encounter that leap. Thank you, for the heads up. Thumbsup
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25-08-2015, 03:28 PM
RE: Terms for debates
Here's some:

God-good luck with that!

Creator-see above

Creationism- this could be the invisible molecule mover (theistic evolution) or the hand full of dust-breathed humans in Genesis.

These are extremely dodgy terms.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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