Test for which European political ideology you are closest to
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21-07-2013, 02:22 PM
RE: Test for which European political ideology you are closest to
What leads to corruption is not bureaucracy nor economic anarchy, individualism is what leads to corruption, or it's at least an important ingredient. The former two are just circumstances that enable corruption.

That's the problem with philosophies like Ayn Rand's, they assume everyone will act the same given some general set of circumstances, and that's false. People find ways to overcome restrictive laws or to abuse some extreme freedom... If we all pull for ourselves we en up with and unravelled society, if we're forced to push to one common objective we don't push at all... We need to be convinced that pushing in the same direction is what will benefit ourselves, and that's hard as libertarians or communists heads.

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21-07-2013, 05:11 PM
RE: Test for which European political ideology you are closest to
social democrat

... And here I thought I was indifferent.

Give me my rights, send my tax to healthcare and other public sectors, don't infringe on people's rights and I don't give a damn who's fucking things up.
Far as I can tell, everything is bound to get fucked up at some point anyway.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
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22-07-2013, 07:55 AM
RE: Test for which European political ideology you are closest to
(21-07-2013 12:30 PM)Crimson Flyboy Wrote:  What problem do you have with wealth inequality? If I am doing well, it matters not to me that someone else is doing even better. Just worry about yourself.
We all have different sizes of consciousness. Your consciousness is so small it doesn't reach beyond you and immediate family, is that right? But people like Martin Luther King or Mohandas Gandhi had a consciousness enough to be aware of whole society's problems. And they had to act, they were driven to act, without support or sponsors.
That which we encompass with our consciousness we feel as a part of ourselves, that's the origin of compassion. Society's problems are felt as itches and pains on our own body, failing economy almost as our own failing heart. People are not morally better or worse than you, just aware of problems on greater scale, awareness that can't just be switched off.

This is not a question of morality or selfishness, you just don't have a time or emotional investment anywhere else in the world, nobody can blame you. The consciousness develops by interaction. Maybe if you traveled around the world, visited some nasty places, some meat grinders of this world, lived there with the people, interacted with them, your views would change.

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
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22-07-2013, 08:00 AM
RE: Test for which European political ideology you are closest to
(22-07-2013 07:55 AM)Luminon Wrote:  We all have different sizes of consciousness. Your consciousness is so small it doesn't reach beyond you and immediate family, is that right? But people like Martin Luther King or Mohandas Gandhi had a consciousness enough to be aware of whole society's problems. And they had to act, they were driven to act, without support or sponsors.
That which we encompass with our consciousness we feel as a part of ourselves, that's the origin of compassion. Society's problems are felt as itches and pains on our own body, failing economy almost as our own failing heart. People are not morally better or worse than you, just aware of problems on greater scale, awareness that can't just be switched off.

This is not a question of morality or selfishness, you just don't have a time or emotional investment anywhere else in the world, nobody can blame you. The consciousness develops by interaction. Maybe if you traveled around the world, visited some nasty places, some meat grinders of this world, lived there with the people, interacted with them, your views would change.

This is where I will have to disagree with you. I will not mince words. It is entirely selfish to refuse to empathize with our fellow citizens simply because we may be financially secure at the moment. It is not as though it takes more time to read Ayn Rand or subscribe to her ridiculous philosophy.

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22-07-2013, 08:39 AM (This post was last modified: 22-07-2013 09:20 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Test for which European political ideology you are closest to
(22-07-2013 08:00 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  This is where I will have to disagree with you. I will not mince words. It is entirely selfish to refuse to empathize with our fellow citizens simply because we may be financially secure at the moment. It is not as though it takes more time to read Ayn Rand or subscribe to her ridiculous philosophy.
You are right, very much so, but someone has to play the good cop around here! Angel
Selfishness is selfishness. A man I much respect called AR's objectivism "insane, immature, self-centered, has nothing to do with reality." Selfishness is a label word for some behavior, but it doesn't tell us what it is, where does it come from and how to prevent it. We can brow-beat selfish people into conformity and feel good about it, but that doesn't always work out. Nobody is born selfish, we need to find the source of this behavioral plague in the culture and change it. Nothing is exempt from change, not our genes, not our beliefs, not our culture. It's better if we do the change, or there will come a crisis and will do it for us.

I find this neutral analytic approach more useful and I get more pleasure and fun from it than I would get from criticizing selfish people. Maybe I can show them why they are selfish and if that still makes them better off than other alternatives. It could be said I am the greediest of all, because I aim for the greatest overall synergic net benefit for humanity and would be satisfied with nothing less. I want others to rise up to my greed, to believe that everyone, even the richest can have more and do more, just like medieval kings could not even imagine to do what an average citizen can do today.

I believe I can rise beyond mere opinions, beyond agreement and disagreement, beyond limited solutions. Not everyone can do that, but some can learn. And if they can't, it would be nice to convince them that people who can do that are the real deal.
I believe even the ultimate beliefs or political/economical opinions are just... relative, just decisions we make, that are not untouchable. If we had all our needs met by vastly superior technology, we'd probably be all leftist anarchists, that is, there'd be no jobs left for business, politics and family. There'd be no way to tell who is selfish or altruistic, moral or immoral, lazy or hard working. There would however perhaps emerge virtues and virtues-to-be, which we can not even imagine today.

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
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22-07-2013, 12:34 PM
RE: Test for which European political ideology you are closest to
I won't refrain from criticizing the childish philosophy of Ayn Rand and Libertarianism. It is selfish and I have demonstrated how that is. If the particular individual is not willing to change their mind afterwards, that is their prerogative.

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22-07-2013, 04:38 PM
RE: Test for which European political ideology you are closest to
Frankly, at first I didn't believe she was serious. Businessmen as heroes? C'mon! Drinking Beverage But then I learned she was from Soviet Union, Communists and collectivist propaganda everywhere and then she went to USA.
She reminded me of the medieval Satanism. Satanists used to make a mock rituals for bored rich people, with an upturned cross, a naked woman instead of an altar and with a chalice of whiskey instead of mass wine. Kind of a childish protest against Christianity. So that's what Objectivism is, a red star turned upside down in deliberate blasphemy against Marx and Lenin.

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
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22-07-2013, 08:20 PM
RE: Test for which European political ideology you are closest to
Quote:You are a classical socialist,

No surprise.
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23-07-2013, 04:09 AM
RE: Test for which European political ideology you are closest to
(22-07-2013 04:38 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Frankly, at first I didn't believe she was serious. Businessmen as heroes? C'mon! Drinking Beverage But then I learned she was from Soviet Union, Communists and collectivist propaganda everywhere and then she went to USA.
She reminded me of the medieval Satanism. Satanists used to make a mock rituals for bored rich people, with an upturned cross, a naked woman instead of an altar and with a chalice of whiskey instead of mass wine. Kind of a childish protest against Christianity. So that's what Objectivism is, a red star turned upside down in deliberate blasphemy against Marx and Lenin.

The only difference is that she actually believed her philosophy would work, where as Satanists simply mocked Christianity.

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23-07-2013, 04:30 AM
RE: Test for which European political ideology you are closest to
sadly the configuration has yet to apear... but social pirate Arrrg!
i tend to vote for social democrats / Pirate party if only i could have both!

they way i see it the swedish pirate party is really a form of information socialism...

socialism is all about increasing the productive middle class as apposed to just giving the ritch more money which they just hord away and do nothing worthwhile with other then give to other ritch people. wich really does little to help society...

so to the pirate part deals with information... reducing the information the information ritch (goverments and google) can collect while seeking to improve the ammout if information we the people can use i.e less constrains on intelectuall properlty...

patents really exist to drive inovation into the public domain where it can proffit all of us...
disney made their fortune on public domain stories yet they are the most outspoken supporters for more stringent copyright laws with is rediculous!

a patent is a government monopoly given in return for the invention eventually being free for anyone to use without rotalties...
it is not to encurrage more innovation that is a fallshood..

as for medicine most reaserch done privatly is to bypass existing patents by making copycat drugs wasting resources better spend on curring dissease.. government or nonprofit sponsored funding actually accounts for a lot of the real innovations..

dont feed the copyright and patent lawyers feed the innovators!
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