Testing Our Faith!?
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16-04-2016, 05:49 AM (This post was last modified: 16-04-2016 05:56 AM by CosmicRaven.)
Testing Our Faith!?
I made a blog post about creationism and got my first creationist commenter. They said something that was really confusing to me.

Quote:... You also asked, “What about the evidence that definitely doesn’t support Biblical creation?” Regarding that evidence, I would say a decision must be made, either to believe in Christianity or in Atheism. Christianity can explain all contrary evidence, here are a few Bible verses that explain why:

Isaiah 45:15 Truly You are God, who hide Yourself, O God of Israel, the Savior!

1 Chronicles 29:17 “I know also, my God, that You test the heart and have pleasure in uprightness….”

Deuteronomy 13:1-3
1 ¶ “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
2 “and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’ — which you have not known — ‘and let us serve them,’
3 “you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

As these verses clearly teach, God deliberately hides himself, tests our hearts, and even causes contrary evidence to test whether we love him with all our heart and soul. So the Christian can say that God deliberately caused the evidence that does not support Biblical creation, in order to test us.

If God is hiding, wouldn't it still be clear that he did something? What would be the point of making stuff look like you had nothing to do with it? If he made stuff, shouldn't he make it clear that it was him and not some other deity? God is deliberately causing the evidence to not support biblical creation!? How do I even know he's real then? Why would he want us to have blind faith?

Then, they go on to say this:
Quote:Now let’s ask the same question of Atheism. How can Atheism explain the powerful evidence for Biblical creation? Answer: Atheism can’t explain the evidence for creation. Atheism doesn’t have the resources to explain the abundance of evidence for creation.

Atheism is just not believing in any deity. I don't understand what point they're trying to make here.

Here's my favorite part:
Quote:Clearly then, Christianity should be accepted, because it can explain all the evidence easily, while Atheism should be rejected, because there is a great body of evidence it cannot explain.

Why Christianity? Why not Judiasm or Islam? The creation and evolution debate isn't a Christian vs atheist thing. There are religious people who understand evolution. There are also other religions with creation stories. I don't see how they came to the conclusion that Christianity must be the true religion.

Just because an explanation is given for something doesn't mean it's true. I could explain why there's wind by saying "God is trying to cool his food." That's not true, though. Scientists are willing to admit that they don't know something. Then, they will work hard to learn more. Unlike so many creationists, they don't start with a conclusion.

Also, there have been explanations for things people have used for evidence of creation. A great example would be Kent and Eric Hovind's presentations. A lot of that stuff has been debunked or explained. It's not atheism explaining it, though. Atheism isn't an explanation. People explain things with science and finding out what really happened in an event. If we don't know something, we can say that.

What do you guys think?
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16-04-2016, 05:53 AM
RE: Testing Our Faith!?
I think hes incrdibly stuipd.

Now, ask him if he can demonstrate that any of his assertions (or better: the bibles assertions) are true.

Its nice that his bible has explanations for everything while we have not. Now, why should the bible be correct?

I place my $ on circular reasoning: His answer sill be "because its the word of god" Facepalm

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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16-04-2016, 05:57 AM
RE: Testing Our Faith!?
It’s all a song and dance behind smoke and mirrors, delusions, ego, cognitive dissonance, indoctrination, fear and unsupported bullshit.

Debating someone who has clearly discarded skeptical and rational thought is a waste of your time.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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16-04-2016, 05:58 AM (This post was last modified: 16-04-2016 06:33 AM by Full Circle.)
RE: Testing Our Faith!?
(16-04-2016 05:53 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  I think hes incrdibly stuipd.

I think you may want to spell check this statement. Wink

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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16-04-2016, 07:01 AM
RE: Testing Our Faith!?
(16-04-2016 05:49 AM)CosmicRaven Wrote:  I made a blog post about creationism and got my first creationist commenter. They said something that was really confusing to me.

Quote:... You also asked, “What about the evidence that definitely doesn’t support Biblical creation?” Regarding that evidence, I would say a decision must be made, either to believe in Christianity or in Atheism. Christianity can explain all contrary evidence, here are a few Bible verses that explain why:

No matter how many times they strawman it, we don't "believe in atheism", we simply don't believe that the claims of theism are credible. If he can't provide evidence why anybody should believe in his god then atheism is the default position, not an alternative. Being an atheist is like being an a-leprechaunist or an a-bigfootist, or an a-reptilianoverlordist. We can disbelieve those claims without needing to provide alternatives simply on the basis of the claims not being proven. We just don't have words for it because those positions aren't serious issues in society.

Quote:
Quote:As these verses clearly teach, God deliberately hides himself, tests our hearts, and even causes contrary evidence to test whether we love him with all our heart and soul. So the Christian can say that God deliberately caused the evidence that does not support Biblical creation, in order to test us.

If God is hiding, wouldn't it still be clear that he did something? What would be the point of making stuff look like you had nothing to do with it? If he made stuff, shouldn't he make it clear that it was him and not some other deity? God is deliberately causing the evidence to not support biblical creation!? How do I even know he's real then?

You're right, but I think it is somewhat beside the point. When your belief is based on the existence of a magical being with hidden agendas you can of course come up with an explanation for any evidence. "god wants it that way" covers over every hole in the argument but it doesn't actually explain anything.

It's no different that saying I believe that there is a race of magical pixies that created the universe as a playground. Everything that is or happens can be explained as them playing practical jokes on each other. Without evidence to support the existence of these proposed pixies it doesn't make sense to believe they exist even though they explain everything.

Quote:Why would he want us to have blind faith?

That is a good question. I submit that his god exists but is actually testing people for gullibility. Those who believe without evidence will be annihilated while those who come to rational conclusions based on the best available evidence will be rewarded. Since he can't prove that's wrong it must be right.

Quote:
Quote:Now let’s ask the same question of Atheism. How can Atheism explain the powerful evidence for Biblical creation? Answer: Atheism can’t explain the evidence for creation. Atheism doesn’t have the resources to explain the abundance of evidence for creation.

This is again a complete strawman of what atheism is. Atheism has nothing to explain and no onus to proffer an explanation for anything. Theists look at something and say "god did it" while atheists say "we don't know what did it but the evidence for a god doesn't hold up so we need to keep investigating". Many people are unwilling to admit that they don't know why the universe is as we see it or why bad things happen so they say "X did it" and stop thinking about it in order to make themselves feel comforted. Not knowing is OK; it is the driving force that makes people go out to learn more about reality.

Quote:
Quote:Clearly then, Christianity should be accepted, because it can explain all the evidence easily, while Atheism should be rejected, because there is a great body of evidence it cannot explain.

Clearly then, the magical pixies should be accepted because that explains all the evidence easily.

Answers should be accepted when there is evidence actually supporting them. An answer that is sufficient to explain something is still insufficient as an answer unless it can be shown that it is also necessary. Consider a murder scene... if the police say that there is no evidence but they believe person X snuck in, committed the murder, and left without leaving a trace because if that was true then they'd be guilty. Would that be enough for a conviction? A juror who said "I don't know who did it but there's no evidence supporting the charge against X" would be right to vote 'not guilty'. With respect to the claim that god exists I vote 'not guilty due to lack of evidence'.

When theists say things like "if you assume there is a god it explains everything" they are right. It is also not the profound statement they think it is.

Quote:Just because an explanation is given for something doesn't mean it's true. I could explain why there's wind by saying "God is trying to cool his food." That's not true, though. Scientists are willing to admit that they don't know something. Then, they will work hard to learn more. Unlike so many creationists, they don't start with a conclusion.

You got it, although in some ways scientists may actually start with a conclusion, or a least a supposition. The difference is that if the evidence supporting it can't be found they don't continue to accept it and make up reasons why the evidence isn't there.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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16-04-2016, 07:18 AM
RE: Testing Our Faith!?
Thanks for replying to both what I said and what they said. I'm willing to learn. ^.^
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16-04-2016, 09:01 AM
RE: Testing Our Faith!?
(16-04-2016 05:49 AM)CosmicRaven Wrote:  Why Christianity?

Cause that is fairy tale that he was brainwashed to believe.

(16-04-2016 05:49 AM)CosmicRaven Wrote:  The creation and evolution debate isn't a Christian vs atheist thing. There are religious people who understand evolution. There are also other religions with creation stories. I don't see how they came to the conclusion that Christianity must be the true religion.

He didn't came to conclusion. In all probability he was simply indoctrinated and that's all. While this guy seems to be stupid he may be able to spot holes in other religion creation accounts, he is just blind to holes in his own fairy tale.

(16-04-2016 05:49 AM)CosmicRaven Wrote:  Just because an explanation is given for something doesn't mean it's true. I could explain why there's wind by saying "God is trying to cool his food." That's not true, though. Scientists are willing to admit that they don't know something. Then, they will work hard to learn more. Unlike so many creationists, they don't start with a conclusion.

Bible creation story is no explanation. It only shift the question.

(16-04-2016 05:49 AM)CosmicRaven Wrote:  What do you guys think?

I think that guy that commented is just another ignorant creationist not worth talking to. Time is finite resource best not wasted on fools.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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16-04-2016, 01:27 PM
RE: Testing Our Faith!?
Gotta love that 'Gawd made the fossils to test our faith' nonsense. It's internally inconsistencies could fill a decent psych textbook. For fun:

1) Make popcorn.

2) "God's lying to us? I thought Satan was the Father of Lies. Are you sure you're worshipping the right fellow? Which lies should I believe? The ones in the Bible or the ones in the ground? Isn't there a Commandment against this?"

3) PopcornPopcornPopcorn[Image: boom.gif]LaughatLaughatLaughat

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Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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16-04-2016, 01:49 PM
RE: Testing Our Faith!?
Quote:Now let’s ask the same question of Atheism. How can Atheism explain the powerful evidence for Biblical creation? Answer: Atheism can’t explain the evidence for creation. Atheism doesn’t have the resources to explain the abundance of evidence for creation.

I know there is powerful evidence for a Biblical creation because the Bible says there is powerful evidence for a Biblical creation.
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16-04-2016, 03:00 PM
RE: Testing Our Faith!?
(16-04-2016 01:49 PM)ghostexorcist Wrote:  
Quote:Now let’s ask the same question of Atheism. How can Atheism explain the powerful evidence for Biblical creation? Answer: Atheism can’t explain the evidence for creation. Atheism doesn’t have the resources to explain the abundance of evidence for creation.

I know there is powerful evidence for a Biblical creation because the Bible says there is powerful evidence for a Biblical creation.

Every year or so scientists discover the remains of Noah's ark on Mount Ararat Rolleyes

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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