Texas Church Shooting
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06-11-2017, 10:52 AM
RE: Texas Church Shooting
(06-11-2017 10:45 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  
(06-11-2017 10:43 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  Take care of basic needs as a start.
But the truth is.
We won't.
So keep your hands off my guns.
There are a lot of miserable pricks out there and I may need them.

If you ask me this is "circling the drain time".
But we might as well continue to kick for a while before we just sign up for the world of 1984.
The world may be going to shit but I for one am not going to willing march there.

Succinct summary of the gunner's paranoia. Thanks. I'll give you credit when I quote it.

If you think I'm paranoid you'd be far from knowing me.
Every time this comes up it's because another nut job went postal.
I certainly wouldn't call it paranoid.

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06-11-2017, 10:58 AM
RE: Texas Church Shooting
(06-11-2017 10:52 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  
(06-11-2017 10:45 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  Succinct summary of the gunner's paranoia. Thanks. I'll give you credit when I quote it.

If you think I'm paranoid you'd be far from knowing me.
Every time this comes up it's because another nut job went postal.
I certainly wouldn't call it paranoid.

Well, it sounds paranoid.
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06-11-2017, 10:59 AM
RE: Texas Church Shooting
(06-11-2017 10:19 AM)epronovost Wrote:  Are you really fine with all those mass shootings?

No.
But I don't think they are going anywhere.
And they are getting more common.
I and all of the other law abiding citizens will keep our guns.
Taking them away from us won't do a thing.
And that includes whatever I deem to be the best measure against the next nut.
If I so choose.
Personally I only own hunting rifles.
But I'll fight anyone who wants to take away my right to buy a ruger mini 14.

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06-11-2017, 11:03 AM
RE: Texas Church Shooting
(06-11-2017 10:58 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  
(06-11-2017 10:52 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  If you think I'm paranoid you'd be far from knowing me.
Every time this comes up it's because another nut job went postal.
I certainly wouldn't call it paranoid.

Well, it sounds paranoid.

I'd call a failure to recognize the state of things delusional.
What are we up to 2 a week?
You think passing gun laws is going to change that.
I doubt it.

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06-11-2017, 11:03 AM (This post was last modified: 06-11-2017 11:11 AM by epronovost.)
RE: Texas Church Shooting
@Bikerdude

Canadian are poorer than American. By all account there is more misery in Canada in terms of proportion than in the US or pretty much just as much. There is almost twice more unemployed people in Canada than in the States. There is the same level of mental illness too. Sure we have public healthcare, but services in mental health are very limited, especially for hard cases. We have comparable rates of domestic violence and sexual violence. Don't forget that crime isn't just a product of misery or insanity, but also of impulsiveness, fear and opportunism.

To reduce crime you need mildly intelligent social policies like universal healthcare, a well funded school system, cities where low income housing aren't all built in the same neighbourhood, a good social net for people out of job, a trusted police force and government and a low access to concealable and/or high power weapons. The big difference between Americans and Canadians is, in my opinion, that the American society is extremely fearful and distrustful of others. Behind your high access of firearms there is a fear of being attacked, of being robbed by those around you. Guns, being so dangerous and threatening, are simply raising that anxiety and mistrust to a fever pitch. You got to have guns because the others have guns. Its a vicious circle. I don't think you can reasonnably expect people to learn to trust and care for each other while everybody is "pointing" guns at everybody else.

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06-11-2017, 11:06 AM
RE: Texas Church Shooting
(06-11-2017 11:03 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  
(06-11-2017 10:58 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  Well, it sounds paranoid.

I'd call a failure to recognize the state of things delusional.
What are we up to 2 a week?
You think passing gun laws is going to change that.
I doubt it.

Of course you do.
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06-11-2017, 11:23 AM (This post was last modified: 06-11-2017 11:30 AM by BikerDude.)
RE: Texas Church Shooting
(06-11-2017 10:48 AM)yakherder Wrote:  I reckon the root of the problem is sociological. The guns themselves are just one piece of the puzzle, and given our prevalent gun culture, if the end goal is to reduce deaths we'd probably get a bigger metaphorical bang for our buck tackling other aspects of the bigger problem, i.e. mental health, education, employment, etc., than we would putting that money towards the creation of the kinds of institutions that would be required to oversee the implementation of unpopular laws that would, naturally, be implemented primarily on the most armed and disillusioned segments of our population, which is vast compared to the countries we're always trying to draw comparisons to.

Well said!
Taking away people's rights without fixing the underlying problems is not only ineffective it is actually just likely to make things worse.
At which point people will give away more rights etc etc etc....

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06-11-2017, 11:34 AM (This post was last modified: 06-11-2017 11:48 AM by BikerDude.)
RE: Texas Church Shooting
(06-11-2017 11:03 AM)epronovost Wrote:  @Bikerdude

Canadian are poorer than American. By all account there is more misery in Canada in terms of proportion than in the US or pretty much just as much. There is almost twice more unemployed people in Canada than in the States. There is the same level of mental illness too. Sure we have public healthcare, but services in mental health are very limited, especially for hard cases. We have comparable rates of domestic violence and sexual violence. Don't forget that crime isn't just a product of misery or insanity, but also of impulsiveness, fear and opportunism.

To reduce crime you need mildly intelligent social policies like universal healthcare, a well funded school system, cities where low income housing aren't all built in the same neighbourhood, a good social net for people out of job, a trusted police force and government and a low access to concealable and/or high power weapons. The big difference between Americans and Canadians is, in my opinion, that the American society is extremely fearful and distrustful of others. Behind your high access of firearms there is a fear of being attacked, of being robbed by those around you. Guns, being so dangerous and threatening, are simply raising that anxiety and mistrust to a fever pitch. You got to have guns because the others have guns. Its a vicious circle. I don't think you can reasonnably expect people to learn to trust and care for each other while everybody is "pointing" guns at everybody else.

But being poor and unemployed in Canada is a world different from poor and unemployed in the US.
I don't think there is anything on the order of the amount of misery in Canada as the US. Unless perhaps it's aboriginal people and the US has you beat on that also.

I don't buy your argument.
That guy didn't go to the church and shoot people out of fear or mistrust.
(Nor did the Vegas shooter or any of the mass shooters that I can think of.)
He wasn't afraid of other people's guns.
His life was a cavalcade of one tragic (albeit self inflicted) event after another.
And in the US there is no bottom to the rabbit hole.
As more and more people slide down that rabbit hole we see more and more of this.
For law abiding people to consider the need for guns when this is prevalent does not in my opinion point to this circular paranoia that you suggest.
I'd say it's a very understandable reaction.
And you are right unless we implement social policy to turn that around it won't improve.
But I see zero sign that we will do that.
I see a furthering divide between the haves and have nots and a more and more militarized police force to keep a lid on it.
By "I see it" I don't mean like a fortune teller. I mean it's happening. Right before our eyes.

I don't own guns out of fear.
But I do admit that the way things have been progressing I can see the time when self protection might be a real consideration for me owning guns.
It never has been.

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06-11-2017, 11:36 AM
RE: Texas Church Shooting
Needs more dragons Drinking Beverage
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06-11-2017, 11:37 AM
RE: Texas Church Shooting
I'm 66.6 years old, and outside of my duties in the Navy I've never needed a gun. The odds of me needing a gun a slight. Not high enough for me to lug one around.
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