Thallus as referenced by Sextus Julius Africanus
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22-03-2015, 08:31 AM
RE: Thallus as referenced by Sextus Julius Africanus
There were historians of natural history events that recorded pretty much every event like a "darkness", and for sure earthquakes. They recorded nothing about this "event". No one recorded ANYTHING about the "many saints" whose graves were opened who supposedly were "seen by many", nor did anyone record ONE "empty tomb" (other than Jebus'), nor ANY "split rocks" etc etc. It's a nice made-up fable. If there had been a zombie invasion of Jerusalem, someone outside the gospels would have said something about it.

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22-03-2015, 08:47 AM
RE: Thallus as referenced by Sextus Julius Africanus
(22-03-2015 03:53 AM)Salkinius Wrote:  Hi guys... In a discussion with a christian about the historicity of Jesus the other part mentions Thallus a pagan 1st or 2nd CE historian. There are only fragments left of Thallus work and it all is referred to in second hand by other historians. Like Sextus Julius Africanus for example.

According to Africanus, who was a christian, Thallus mentions the darkness that followed the death of christ. And Africanus comments that Thallus must have used to wrong word for the darkness because it couldn't have been an eclipse.

Well this might be the best source outside of the bible that describes the supernatural I have ever seen and I would like to know how you have or would respond to it. Do you know anything more than I do about it.

So the best evidence for this supernatural darkness is a reference by a Byzantine Christian author quoting without context a 160-240CE Christian author who himself is quoting an unknown writer named Thallus who wrote at an undisclosed time... and disagreeing with him, saying that Thallus was wrong about the cause of the darkness.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thallus_%28...of_Thallus

... and this is intended to be watertight proof that an event occurred two thousand years ago that we would doubt and scrutinise today even with multiple high resolution video feeds and full scientific enquiries?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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22-03-2015, 12:01 PM
RE: Thallus as referenced by Sextus Julius Africanus
(22-03-2015 03:53 AM)Salkinius Wrote:  Hi guys... In a discussion with a christian about the historicity of Jesus the other part mentions Thallus a pagan 1st or 2nd CE historian. There are only fragments left of Thallus work and it all is referred to in second hand by other historians. Like Sextus Julius Africanus for example.

According to Africanus, who was a christian, Thallus mentions the darkness that followed the death of christ. And Africanus comments that Thallus must have used to wrong word for the darkness because it couldn't have been an eclipse.

Well this might be the best source outside of the bible that describes the supernatural I have ever seen and I would like to know how you have or would respond to it. Do you know anything more than I do about it.

Here is the reference and the quote in question:

III.--The Extant Fragments of the Five Books of the Chronography of Julius Africanus.

XVIII. [1102]


On the circumstances connected with our Saviour's Passion and His life-giving resurrection, and as to His several works and His cures effected upon body and soul, and the mysteries of His doctrine and the resurrection from the dead, these have been most authoritatively set forth by His disciples and apostles before us. On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down.

Of this darkness- Thallus calls it in the third book of his History- as appears to me without reason- "an eclipse of the sun."

For the Hebrews celebrate the passover on the 14th day according to the moon, and the passion of our Saviour fails on the day before the passover; but an eclipse of the sun takes place only when the moon comes under the sun. And it cannot happen at any other time but in the interval between the first day of the new moon and the last of the old, that is, at their junction: how then should an eclipse be supposed to happen when the moon is almost diametrically opposite the sun?

Let that opinion pass however; let it carry the majority with it; and let this portent of the world be deemed an eclipse of the sun, like others a portent only to the eye.

Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth hour to the ninth--manifestly that one of which we speak.

But what does an eclipse have in common with an earthquake, the rending rocks, and the resurrection of the dead, and so great a perturbation throughout the universe? Surely no such event as this is recorded for a long period.

But it was a darkness induced by God, because the Lord happened then to suffer. And calculation makes out that the period of 70 weeks, as noted in Daniel, is completed at this time.


http://mb-soft.com/believe/txua/africanu.htm

From what we can ascertain from this, Thallus had written a history and mentioned an eclipse. However, Africanus does not state that Thallus was speaking about an eclipse during the crucifixion of Jesus, but rather only that an eclipse had occurred in the area. Africanus also does not mention anything about Thallus recording anything about Jesus.

It would appear to me that Africianus had read Thallus' history book, and going by the dates Thallus supplied, Africianus had determined that Thallus had said that an eclipse had occurred in Judea around the time that Africanus believed that Jesus was crucified.

The point here is that at no time does Africanus ever state that Thallus had said anything to the effect that an eclipse had occured during the crucifixion of Jesus.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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22-03-2015, 10:00 PM
RE: Thallus as referenced by Sextus Julius Africanus
(22-03-2015 08:47 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  So the best evidence for this supernatural darkness is a reference by a Byzantine Christian author quoting without context a 160-240CE Christian author who himself is quoting an unknown writer named Thallus who wrote at an undisclosed time... and disagreeing with him, saying that Thallus was wrong about the cause of the darkness.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thallus_%28...of_Thallus

... and this is intended to be watertight proof that an event occurred two thousand years ago that we would doubt and scrutinise today even with multiple high resolution video feeds and full scientific enquiries?

It's like saying, " My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw the supernatural darkness after Jebus died".



You can lead a theist to reason, but, you cannot make him think.
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23-03-2015, 08:32 AM
RE: Thallus as referenced by Sextus Julius Africanus
I thanks you all for your replies.

And certainly I meant the alleged event when I wrote the supernatural event.

The response I got when I said that other historian would surely have reported such an event, is that is was a local event. So other historians wouldn't have known about it.

I'm not suggesting that this would a solid proof of any kind. It was however something that the christian who I was talking to relied upon. And I had never come across it before.

What I wanted to know is if you had some reliable sources on when this Thallus lived and who he was. The only sources I could fins is christian ones.
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24-03-2015, 04:39 AM
RE: Thallus as referenced by Sextus Julius Africanus
(23-03-2015 08:32 AM)Salkinius Wrote:  The response I got when I said that other historian would surely have reported such an event, is that is was a local event. So other historians wouldn't have known about it.

1. "Now from the sixth hour there occurred darkness over all the land until the ninth hour", Matthew 27:45.

2. "Now when the sixth hour had come, it became dark over all the land until the ninth hour," Mark 15:33.

3. "It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness came over all the land until the ninth hour, the sun failing" (Luke 23:44-45).




3 hours of darkness all over the land? Hardly sounds like a minor, local event does it? Something so noticeable doesn't need to be recorded only by historians. And wouldn't the temple scribes have perhaps seen this as a manifestation of Jehovah's power? Made note of it? Jerusalem was a city. I find it hard to believe they were no literate people that noted such an event, especially as it was, according to Christianity, a supernatural event.
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24-03-2015, 05:13 AM
RE: Thallus as referenced by Sextus Julius Africanus
Thanks Cornelia! I rest my case... and hopefully his.
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