Thanks Muslims!
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15-09-2012, 09:05 PM
RE: Thanks Muslims!
For those not initiated, that's what a Canadian looks like when he's being rude Cool

For those of us that know Avi Lewis and the family he comes from, we know what happened in that video.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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16-09-2012, 08:12 AM
RE: Thanks Muslims!
(15-09-2012 01:43 PM)Marco Krieger Wrote:  
(15-09-2012 12:45 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Tunnel vision won't solve a thing. I wrote out a whole context and you replied to this once detail from it. No disrespect intended, but this is far too simplistic for a problem that has had no solution for centuries. Choice A is asking too much - it would be akin to asking you to give up your atheism. Choice B isn't likely to happen while everyone is telling them how bad, backwards, wrong, etc. that they are. It puts them on the defense and ruins any chance of openmindedness. Choice C won't happen because, if you understood the context I described, these desperate acts of violence are their last hope. It's all they have. Choice D frankly shows a complete lack of understanding of what's going on with these people if you honestly think it amounts to "petty quibbles".

So, what should we do?
After all i read, all options including the cooperation of muslims, and i mean on a minimal basic level, seems fare out of reach.
You don't have to deal with politics, it started with there participation in school-activitys, like picknicks or parents evenings for schoolaffairs.
I should better write non-participation, because they don't want to even speak to one of the other parents.
I was active member of the parents commitee in my daughter's school for 5 jears.
The closest encounter to a muslima was her statement that her child only eat halal, that she has to wear a veil and that it is against islam that her daughter stay's overnight with the other children in school for a sleep-over.
That's all, conditions and termes, on conversation.
Again, what should we do?
That's a good question and I don't have the answer. The only points I have been making in this thread are that the problems are not due to just Islam and probably not even mainly due to Islam, are not due to any recent single event, have a historical context dating back centuries and which matter, warrant more understanding than just "these are crazy people" if we are ever going to find a solution, and also that the extremists and other Muslims should not be classified together. It's a very complex set of issues and if there were any easy answers, the problems would have been resolved long ago.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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16-09-2012, 08:14 AM
RE: Thanks Muslims!

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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16-09-2012, 08:35 AM
RE: Thanks Muslims!
(15-09-2012 06:30 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(15-09-2012 12:45 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Tunnel vision won't solve a thing. I wrote out a whole context and you replied to this once detail from it. No disrespect intended, but this is far too simplistic for a problem that has had no solution for centuries.


Because I come to a different conclusion than you does not mean that I am being narrow-minded.
Tunnel vision is what I said and it's different than closed-mindedness. And I didn't use the term because you came to a different conclusion than I, but because you removed one detail from an entire context - from a post where the point was even to highlight that there is a context - and chose to address only that single point.

(15-09-2012 06:30 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(15-09-2012 12:45 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Choice A is asking too much - it would be akin to asking you to give up your atheism.


Does atheism cause mass violent conflict?
Not that I'm aware of, but I don't see how that addresses the point that it's unrealistic to ask them to give up their religion as a solution. I'm sure you have talked to theists and noticed they don't let go very easily.

(15-09-2012 06:30 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(15-09-2012 12:45 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Choice B isn't likely to happen while everyone is telling them how bad, backwards, wrong, etc. that they are. It puts them on the defense and ruins any chance of openmindedness.


It's not our fault that they are close-minded. They are indoctrinated at a young age to defend Islam, and are taught nothing but the Qur'ran. You are sadly mistaken.
Of course it's not our fault and I didn't say it was. What are you referring to that am I mistaken about? When is the last time someone yelled at you in order to get you to change something and you actually did change? I believe that's similar to what happens when Muslims are denounced in various ways throughout the world - the "wall" goes up and change is the last thing they want to do. I realize they bring a lot of the denunciation on themselves and they aren't helping their own cause, but until those dynamics are broken, there is little hope for a resolution in my opinion.

(15-09-2012 06:30 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(15-09-2012 12:45 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Choice C won't happen because, if you understood the context I described, these desperate acts of violence are their last hope. It's all they have.


I understand your argument. I just disagree with it, and with good reason.
You disagree that the history happened?

(15-09-2012 06:30 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(15-09-2012 12:45 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Choice D frankly shows a complete lack of understanding of what's going on with these people if you honestly think it amounts to "petty quibbles".

It is a petty quibble. What is this all about? Islam. A trivial desert myth turned into an failing empire. Theocracies dictating who lives and who dies, developing the most religiously fanatical governments in existence. Breeding hatred towards the outside. It is up to them, and them alone to fix their problems.

Islam is the primary problem. It has created an insufferable, ignorant, and backwards population.
It is not about Islam. It is about what they consider their homeland, that their homeland has been taken away from them, about their rights as human beings, about fighting for what they believe is theirs, about the whole world pretty much siding against them, about not wanting to sit down and talk because no one really wants to "talk" from their perspective - they want to end the violence and have the Muslims basically sit down and shut up.

(15-09-2012 06:30 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  We must understand both sides, Impulse.
Finally, something we agree on, but their side is one of the many (because there are more than two) sides that must be understood. I don't see that happening from many people.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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16-09-2012, 09:56 AM
RE: Thanks Muslims!
(16-09-2012 08:35 AM)Impulse Wrote:  It is not about Islam. It is about what they consider their homeland, that their homeland has been taken away from them, about their rights as human beings, about fighting for what they believe is theirs, about the whole world pretty much siding against them, about not wanting to sit down and talk because no one really wants to "talk" from their perspective - they want to end the violence and have the Muslims basically sit down and shut up.

That is also a generalization.
And you also mix up religion and politics.
I know, its hard to understand, but it is necessary to keep both separat.
You don't let flash a lighter on, in a dark cellar, if you sniff gas.
I think, if they have no friends in there neighbourship, the last thing that could change that fact, is to smash everybody in the face.
And maybe, just maybe, its there behavior that caused the problem in the first place.
They want to have there homeland back? Welcome to our party.
Its 20 jears since germany is re-united and the scares are even visible.
We protested, peacefull, for over 40 jears, the other site shot's there own people to death.

But this is just land, and land has time to wait until eternity.

Here in germany, we had have a strong support-feeling for Palestinian-issues in the 70th amonge the people.
We also protested against the Shah-Regimee in Irak.
And long befor the american people faced terror, we have the munich-events, the Landshut-kidnapping.
We also support the rights of the jewish people, not only because of the events in the WWII, but for the fact we learned that every human being has rights.
We have reach out our hand to help and support to almost every country in this world.
And now, my embassy burn's.
What should i say, what should i do?
I hope sincerely, they don't think we are cowards, because we don't send soldiers... We did it once or twice, it was not the right way.
So, we will come back and rebuild the thing.
And we still reach out our hand to help.
Because we know, in general, people want to have peace and freedom.
I personally think we have more in common as what us separated from each other.
Religion is one of these divisive factors.
I see this as well-known fact.

If atheism is a religion, then not playing football is an Olympic discipline.
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16-09-2012, 10:22 AM
RE: Thanks Muslims!
(16-09-2012 08:35 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Tunnel vision is what I said and it's different than closed-mindedness. And I didn't use the term because you came to a different conclusion than I, but because you removed one detail from an entire context - from a post where the point was even to highlight that there is a context - and chose to address only that single point.

You are correct, it is not close-mindedness. But neither do I fall under the definition of narrow-mindedness.


(16-09-2012 08:35 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Not that I'm aware of, but I don't see how that addresses the point that it's unrealistic to ask them to give up their religion as a solution. I'm sure you have talked to theists and noticed they don't let go very easily.

If atheism caused as much harm and provided no good, similar to Islam, I would give it up in order to keep people safe.

(16-09-2012 08:35 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Of course it's not our fault and I didn't say it was. What are you referring to that am I mistaken about? When is the last time someone yelled at you in order to get you to change something and you actually did change? I believe that's similar to what happens when Muslims are denounced in various ways throughout the world - the "wall" goes up and change is the last thing they want to do. I realize they bring a lot of the denunciation on themselves and they aren't helping their own cause, but until those dynamics are broken, there is little hope for a resolution in my opinion.

It is up to them to repair their cyclical religiosity and theocracy. They must fix it, and since they are clearly not willing to listen to external advise or aid, they have brought it upon themselves.

I agree, the dynamics need to be broken. They are responsible for doing so.

(16-09-2012 08:35 AM)Impulse Wrote:  You disagree that the history happened?

Tell me, where did I say that?

(16-09-2012 08:35 AM)Impulse Wrote:  It is not about Islam. It is about what they consider their homeland, that their homeland has been taken away from them, about their rights as human beings, about fighting for what they believe is theirs, about the whole world pretty much siding against them, about not wanting to sit down and talk because no one really wants to "talk" from their perspective - they want to end the violence and have the Muslims basically sit down and shut up.

This is totally about Islam. Their constant aggression towards "infidels", there lack of progressive thought, and their economic situations all lie within the veil of Islam. It does nothing to help them and everything to hurt them. I'd love to see the Arab world and how they'd progress if Islam was banned from political policy. Islam can sit down and shut the fuck up.

(16-09-2012 08:35 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Finally, something we agree on, but their side is one of the many (because there are more than two) sides that must be understood. I don't see that happening from many people.

Yes, now did you watch the video or not?

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16-09-2012, 01:38 PM
RE: Thanks Muslims!
This is so easily resolved.
Build a small embassy on a larger plot of land and fill it with explosives.
Incite the people to attack because their prophet was shown in a movie buying a newspaper.
As the large numbers of rioters near the building, blow the building up.

Rebuild it blow it up again, until those damn people get it through their thick skulls that they shouldn't behave this way.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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16-09-2012, 02:16 PM
RE: Thanks Muslims!
(16-09-2012 01:38 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  This is so easily resolved.
Build a small embassy on a larger plot of land and fill it with explosives.
Incite the people to attack because their prophet was shown in a movie buying a newspaper.
As the large numbers of rioters near the building, blow the building up.

Rebuild it blow it up again, until those damn people get it through their thick skulls that they shouldn't behave this way.
Violence merely causes further violence.

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17-09-2012, 07:41 AM
RE: Thanks Muslims!
(16-09-2012 09:56 AM)Marco Krieger Wrote:  
(16-09-2012 08:35 AM)Impulse Wrote:  It is not about Islam. It is about what they consider their homeland, that their homeland has been taken away from them, about their rights as human beings, about fighting for what they believe is theirs, about the whole world pretty much siding against them, about not wanting to sit down and talk because no one really wants to "talk" from their perspective - they want to end the violence and have the Muslims basically sit down and shut up.

That is also a generalization.
And you also mix up religion and politics.
I know, its hard to understand, but it is necessary to keep both separat.
You don't let flash a lighter on, in a dark cellar, if you sniff gas.
I think, if they have no friends in there neighbourship, the last thing that could change that fact, is to smash everybody in the face.
And maybe, just maybe, its there behavior that caused the problem in the first place.
They want to have there homeland back? Welcome to our party.
Its 20 jears since germany is re-united and the scares are even visible.
We protested, peacefull, for over 40 jears, the other site shot's there own people to death.

But this is just land, and land has time to wait until eternity.

Here in germany, we had have a strong support-feeling for Palestinian-issues in the 70th amonge the people.
We also protested against the Shah-Regimee in Irak.
And long befor the american people faced terror, we have the munich-events, the Landshut-kidnapping.
We also support the rights of the jewish people, not only because of the events in the WWII, but for the fact we learned that every human being has rights.
We have reach out our hand to help and support to almost every country in this world.
And now, my embassy burn's.
What should i say, what should i do?
I hope sincerely, they don't think we are cowards, because we don't send soldiers... We did it once or twice, it was not the right way.
So, we will come back and rebuild the thing.
And we still reach out our hand to help.
Because we know, in general, people want to have peace and freedom.
I personally think we have more in common as what us separated from each other.
Religion is one of these divisive factors.
I see this as well-known fact.
How is it a generalization? I don't believe I mixed up religion and politics. Far too much is usually attributed to the religious aspect when in fact politics is the greater influence. Maybe that's why it's seems to you that I mix them up.

I agree with you that, if they need friends, it makes no sense to be carrying out only actions that make enemies. But, again, it's all very complicated. First, there is probably a degree to which they believe they aren't going to make friends no matter what. So making friends therefore becomes secondary to hanging onto what they have and what they believe they should have, but don't yet have. In general, they feel powerless. The violent acts are their desperate way to show what little power they can. I'm talking about the extremists. Most of the rest would never choose this. However, since it happens anyway, they don't condemn it either because they do feel oppressed, powerless, and probably don't have a better solution that they truly believe will accomplish what they need.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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17-09-2012, 08:04 AM
RE: Thanks Muslims!
Hey, Impulse.

I saw an interesting report the other day. Earlier this year, 1 500 Palestinian prisoners staged a hunger strike. The scope of it was massive. And how many people heard about it? Palestinians have been lectured forever that they need to engage in non-violent protest, but when they do (it don't get much more non-violent than hunger striking) they were soundly ignored. So what message does that send them?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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