Thanks Muslims!
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17-09-2012, 08:05 AM
RE: Thanks Muslims!
(16-09-2012 10:22 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  You are correct, it is not close-mindedness. But neither do I fall under the definition of narrow-mindedness.
Sorry, when I wrote "closed-mindedness" earlier, I meant to reply to what you said which was "narrow-mindedness" so I should have written "narrow-mindedness". Again, tunnel vision is different (from both). Tunnel vision is looking at one thing in isolation from the rest which is what you did when you took the one point out of context. Anyway, we may as well move on from this rather then getting hung up on labels.

(16-09-2012 10:22 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  If atheism caused as much harm and provided no good, similar to Islam, I would give it up in order to keep people safe.
I disagree that it is Islam causing so much harm or that it provides no good. I believe the issues have more to do with historical context and the desperation of a people who feel overpowered and violated. Also, maybe atheism wasn't the best analogy because, when there's a magical god in the sky who takes care of everything, no horror on earth can be too much for a believer to make them give up their religion. That god will make everything right in the end.

(16-09-2012 10:22 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  It is up to them to repair their cyclical religiosity and theocracy. They must fix it, and since they are clearly not willing to listen to external advise or aid, they have brought it upon themselves.

I agree, the dynamics need to be broken. They are responsible for doing so.
I disagree. I believe it's up to everyone which includes them. There are many sides to the issues and all involved must be involved in the solution. I do agree that they are reluctant to listen, compromise, or accept help, and that does impose a road block no matter what anyone else does.

(16-09-2012 10:22 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(16-09-2012 08:35 AM)Impulse Wrote:  You disagree that the history happened?

Tell me, where did I say that?
I had referred to my earlier context which was a historical one. You said you understood my argument, but disagreed. So I assumed you meant you disagreed with the historical context. If that's not what you meant, what did you mean?

(16-09-2012 10:22 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  This is totally about Islam. Their constant aggression towards "infidels", there lack of progressive thought, and their economic situations all lie within the veil of Islam. It does nothing to help them and everything to hurt them. I'd love to see the Arab world and how they'd progress if Islam was banned from political policy. Islam can sit down and shut the fuck up.
I believe the term "infidels" is just one that they are accustomed to using from their religion. It is not automatic evidence that religion is the primary influence. Most Muslims will also tell you that the version of Islam that the extremists follow is not true Islam anyway. They have warped it to suit their purposes. You are right that Islam exerts a significant influence on their culture with results in a lack of progressive thought and contributes to their economic circumstances, but those themselves have little to do with their violence and hatred.

(16-09-2012 10:22 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Yes, now did you watch the video or not?
No I didn't. I believe people should express their own words. Between that and the fact that they can be time consuming to watch everyone's videos, I generally don't play them. Is there a point from it that you want to summarize?

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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17-09-2012, 08:09 AM
RE: Thanks Muslims!
(17-09-2012 08:04 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Impulse.

I saw an interesting report the other day. Earlier this year, 1 500 Palestinian prisoners staged a hunger strike. The scope of it was massive. And how many people heard about it? Palestinians have been lectured forever that they need to engage in non-violent protest, but when they do (it don't get much more non-violent than hunger striking) they were soundly ignored. So what message does that send them?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Yes, I agree. This plays right into what I've been trying to point out about why they feel they have no real alternative to their violent methods of getting attention and asserting what little power they can. Anything else they have tried hasn't worked.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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17-09-2012, 09:12 AM
RE: Thanks Muslims!
Just to interject a current event that seems to fit this thread:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-...jihad-bomb

"A Hillside teenager has been charged with trying to detonate a car bomb outside a bar in downtown Chicago, following months of surveillance in which he boasted to undercover federal agents of ignoring reprimands from a mosque leader against plans for terrorism, the U.S. attorney's office announced"

Notice that apparently mosque leaders tried to talk the teen out of this action, but were unsuccessful.

The questions are:
-Did they try hard enough or would nothing have stopped this kid from acting like a fool.
-What was the root cause of his desire to bomb a "Jewish" club.
-Where did he get the idea that "Jews" should be blown up because they are Jews?

I think we have to stop calling these isolated cases and look at the root cause.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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17-09-2012, 09:20 AM
RE: Thanks Muslims!
(17-09-2012 08:05 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Sorry, when I wrote "closed-mindedness" earlier, I meant to reply to what you said which was "narrow-mindedness" so I should have written "narrow-mindedness". Again, tunnel vision is different (from both). Tunnel vision is looking at one thing in isolation from the rest which is what you did when you took the one point out of context. Anyway, we may as well move on from this rather then getting hung up on labels.

If you are wrong, I will not let it go.

Quote:tunnel vision (noun)

Definition of TUNNEL VISION

1
: constriction of the visual field resulting in loss of peripheral vision
2
: extreme narrowness of viewpoint : narrow-mindedness; also : single-minded concentration on one objective

Especially if you are claiming I am the above.

(17-09-2012 08:05 AM)Impulse Wrote:  I disagree that it is Islam causing so much harm or that it provides no good. I believe the issues have more to do with historical context and the desperation of a people who feel overpowered and violated. Also, maybe atheism wasn't the best analogy because, when there's a magical god in the sky who takes care of everything, no horror on earth can be too much for a believer to make them give up their religion. That god will make everything right in the end.

You can disagree all you want. I don't care. I firmly believe Islam is the primary cause and motivator for the current turmoil in the Islamic world.

(17-09-2012 08:05 AM)Impulse Wrote:  I disagree. I believe it's up to everyone which includes them. There are many sides to the issues and all involved must be involved in the solution. I do agree that they are reluctant to listen, compromise, or accept help, and that does impose a road block no matter what anyone else does.

Islam is the road block.

(17-09-2012 08:05 AM)Impulse Wrote:  I had referred to my earlier context which was a historical one. You said you understood my argument, but disagreed. So I assumed you meant you disagreed with the historical context. If that's not what you meant, what did you mean?

I disagree that the historical factors are the primary reason that the Islamic world is so backwards, ignorant, and violent.

(17-09-2012 08:05 AM)Impulse Wrote:  I believe the term "infidels" is just one that they are accustomed to using from their religion. It is not automatic evidence that religion is the primary influence. Most Muslims will also tell you that the version of Islam that the extremists follow is not true Islam anyway. They have warped it to suit their purposes. You are right that Islam exerts a significant influence on their culture with results in a lack of progressive thought and contributes to their economic circumstances, but those themselves have little to do with their violence and hatred.

Yes, just as the Christians will tell you that any apostate wasn't a true Christian. Do you buy that shit?

Most? Where are you getting these statistics from? The minute about of Muslims in the U.S?

(17-09-2012 08:05 AM)Impulse Wrote:  No I didn't. I believe people should express their own words. Between that and the fact that they can be time consuming to watch everyone's videos, I generally don't play them. Is there a point from it that you want to summarize?

I believe in separation of church and state, I dunno about you though.
If Muslims want to their religion to be a government, participate in government, or influence government, they must pay the price for doing so.

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17-09-2012, 09:46 AM (This post was last modified: 17-09-2012 09:52 AM by Crusher.)
RE: Thanks Muslims!
(17-09-2012 08:09 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(17-09-2012 08:04 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Impulse.

I saw an interesting report the other day. Earlier this year, 1 500 Palestinian prisoners staged a hunger strike. The scope of it was massive. And how many people heard about it? Palestinians have been lectured forever that they need to engage in non-violent protest, but when they do (it don't get much more non-violent than hunger striking) they were soundly ignored. So what message does that send them?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Yes, I agree. This plays right into what I've been trying to point out about why they feel they have no real alternative to their violent methods of getting attention and asserting what little power they can. Anything else they have tried hasn't worked.

It's the media, when bad shit happens they will report it no matter if it's muslims, hindus or christians. A massive hunger strike might get reported if it happens in the homecountry of the newscast but when it comes to reporting things abroad it mostly just violence, fires, disasters. No one cares about a hunger strike 3000 km away untill people start dying. So yea, if they would've protested against the "movie" with a hunger strike the "western world" wouldn't care but allow me to quote Stephen Fry.
[Image: fry.jpg]
They have every right to be offended but that's their choice, they should keep their opinion to their selves instead of attacking embassies and killing people. There's nothing wrong with protesting untill violence starts. I know it's a small minority that uses violence, most muslims don't protest at all but well, it wouldn't be the first time a small minority ruins the reputation of the rest. Alot of muslim leaders are distancing their selves from the violence which is a good start but there should be a way to make them not use violence in the first place.

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17-09-2012, 09:50 AM (This post was last modified: 17-09-2012 09:56 AM by Marco Krieger.)
RE: Thanks Muslims!
(17-09-2012 07:41 AM)Impulse Wrote:  1. How is it a generalization?
2. I don't believe I mixed up religion and politics.
Far too much is usually attributed to the religious aspect when in fact politics is
the greater influence.

3. But, again, it's all very complicated.

4. The violent acts are their desperate way to show what little power they can.
They do feel oppressed, powerless, and probably don't have a better solution
that they truly believe will accomplish what they need.

1. In you own words: " the whole world pretty much siding against them."
The whole world? There are 1,57 billiones muslim in that very same world.
How many people do you mean they need to become powerfull?

2. The thread is called "Thanks Muslims" and deals with the events among this
stupit video and the also stupit reactions in some countrys, in wich the majority
of people are muslims.
I think, that has a lot to do with religion and nothing about politics.
You brought in there lost of there homeland, thats clearly a political issue.

3. The thing is, to do a simple thing like bake an egg, you have to have an entire
universe.
That means, nobody say's it's easy. But there is something that has to be done.

4. Sorry, i dont get it. The protesters are oppressed? They have the possebility to
wach TV, they are going in there mosque and they have the freedom to come
together and kill people and distroy buildings.
Thats does not sound like oppressed people to me, to be honest, its sound like
the opposite.
And they have no other choice to be noticed than to be violent?
Do you ever hear the name Mahatma Gandhi?
The oppressed Palestinian people are a differend cup of turkish mocca.

If atheism is a religion, then not playing football is an Olympic discipline.
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17-09-2012, 09:52 AM
RE: Thanks Muslims!
Logica Humano,
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree at this point. We have a fundamental difference in our beliefs about what is going on with Muslims in the Middle East. You attribute far more to Islam itself than I do and, from our discussion, I don't think either of us is going to change the other's mind. As long as we have that difference, I doubt we are going to agree about much at all on this topic.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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17-09-2012, 10:15 AM
RE: Thanks Muslims!
(17-09-2012 09:50 AM)Marco Krieger Wrote:  
(17-09-2012 07:41 AM)Impulse Wrote:  1. How is it a generalization?
2. I don't believe I mixed up religion and politics.
Far too much is usually attributed to the religious aspect when in fact politics is
the greater influence.

3. But, again, it's all very complicated.

4. The violent acts are their desperate way to show what little power they can.
They do feel oppressed, powerless, and probably don't have a better solution
that they truly believe will accomplish what they need.

1. In you own words: " the whole world pretty much siding against them."
The whole world? There are 1,57 billiones muslim in that very same world.
How many people do you mean they need to become powerfull?

2. The thread is called "Thanks Muslims" and deals with the events among this
stupit video and the also stupit reactions in some countrys, in wich the majority
of people are muslims.
I think, that has a lot to do with religion and nothing about politics.
You brought in there lost of there homeland, thats clearly a political issue.

3. The thing is, to do a simple thing like bake an egg, you have to have an entire
universe.
That means, nobody say's it's easy. But there is something that has to be done.

4. Sorry, i dont get it. The protesters are oppressed? They have the possebility to
wach TV, they are going in there mosque and they have the freedom to come
together and kill people and distroy buildings.
Thats does not sound like oppressed people to me, to be honest, its sound like
the opposite.
The oppressed Palestinian people are a differend cup of turkish mocca.
You "quoted" me, but that isn't what I wrote. You numbered it, broke it apart, and even pulled #3 completely out of its context.

#1 - Point taken and perhaps it was somewhat of an over generalization. More accurately, it's most of the countries with any significant power in the world that are against them. And that doesn't mean literally everyone within those countries.

#2 - The video itself clearly centers on religion. It's up for debate whether the reaction to it primarily came from religion. I'm arguing that it did not. Long before the video, those angry people were already angry with the West for many reasons. The video insults not only the religion, but the people who believe in it. I think if the video instead insulted Muslims in the same tone about their treatment of women, it would have brought the same response.

#3 - Since that one sentence was fairly unimportant in it's context and you pulled it out besides, I don't think your reply to this one really addressed anything I said. But I do agree something has to be done. The complexity I mentioned referred to the problem, not the solution. However, finding a solution has a complexity all its own. I agree that doesn't mean we should stop striving toward it, but part of doing so is understanding the true nature of the problem.

#4 - Yes they are oppressed. Their land was taken away, their centuries-old conflict with Jews was hijacked, they are looked down upon by much of the world for their practices, etc. From their viewpoint, they are oppressed.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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17-09-2012, 10:15 AM
RE: Thanks Muslims!
(12-09-2012 04:05 PM)TheDoctorPhil Wrote:  The thread is appropriately titled "Thanks Muslims!" because that's who did it. If they were Christians it would be "Thanks Christians!", if Jews, "Thanks Jews!" and so on and so forth.

In hindsight we all might have been better off if you named it "Fucking Jews".

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“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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17-09-2012, 10:22 AM
RE: Thanks Muslims!
(17-09-2012 09:46 AM)Crusher Wrote:  
(17-09-2012 08:09 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Yes, I agree. This plays right into what I've been trying to point out about why they feel they have no real alternative to their violent methods of getting attention and asserting what little power they can. Anything else they have tried hasn't worked.

It's the media, when bad shit happens they will report it no matter if it's muslims, hindus or christians. A massive hunger strike might get reported if it happens in the homecountry of the newscast but when it comes to reporting things abroad it mostly just violence, fires, disasters. No one cares about a hunger strike 3000 km away untill people start dying. So yea, if they would've protested against the "movie" with a hunger strike the "western world" wouldn't care but allow me to quote Stephen Fry.
[Image: fry.jpg]
They have every right to be offended but that's their choice, they should keep their opinion to their selves instead of attacking embassies and killing people. There's nothing wrong with protesting untill violence starts. I know it's a small minority that uses violence, most muslims don't protest at all but well, it wouldn't be the first time a small minority ruins the reputation of the rest. Alot of muslim leaders are distancing their selves from the violence which is a good start but there should be a way to make them not use violence in the first place.
Sorry, but this goes far beyond "I'm offended by that". Rolleyes They should keep their opinion to their selves? Really? You say "sit down and shut up" eh? Do you feel your country (I don't know where you're from) should do the same when it feels it's being wronged? Maybe you didn't literally mean all expression of opinion, but just the violent ones. If so, ok but that was the whole point. They peacefully expressed their opinion with the hunger strike and it got ignored...

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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