Thanks Muslims!
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13-09-2012, 10:04 PM
RE: Thanks Muslims!
I think that's one of the first times I've ever agreed with you without reservation, Thomas.

Credit where credit is due. Good post.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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13-09-2012, 10:33 PM
RE: Thanks Muslims!
Yeah, what Tom said.

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14-09-2012, 12:45 AM
RE: Thanks Muslims!
(13-09-2012 09:17 PM)Thomas Wrote:  You have to understand both sides of an issue before you can understand yours.
You have to understand why your enemy fights before you can beat him.

They fight for Islam.

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14-09-2012, 01:07 AM (This post was last modified: 14-09-2012 01:10 AM by Logica Humano.)
RE: Thanks Muslims!
We seem to be all forgetting or dismissing the reason for using the hammer.

7–8 April 1980 – Misgav Am hostage crisis in Misgav Am, Israel. 3 dead, 11 injured
11 November 1982 – First Tyre headquarters bombings in Tyre, Lebanon, 102 dead, 28 injured
18 April 1983 – The April 1983 U.S. Embassy bombing, Beirut, Lebanon by the Islamic Jihad Organization, 63 dead, 120 injured[1]
27 July 1980 – Antwerp, Belgium. Syrian Palestinian Said Al Nasr threw two hand grenades into a group of Jewish children waiting for a bus. 1 dead, 20 injured.
29 August 1981 – 1981 Vienna synagogue attack in Vienna, Austria, was attacked by Palestinian gunmen. 2 dead, 30 wounded
23 October 1983 – 1983 Beirut barracks bombing by the Islamic Jihad Organization, that killed 241 U.S. marines, 58 French paratroopers and 6 civilians at the US and French barracks in Beirut and injured 75.[2]
2 November 1983 – Second Tyre headquarters bombings in Tyre, Lebanon. 60 dead, 40 injured
14 June 1985 – TWA Flight 847 was an international Trans World Airlines flight, which was hijacked by members of Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad. 1 dead.
7 July 1989 – Tel Aviv Jerusalem bus 405 suicide attack, near Kiryat Yearim. 16 dead
1990–1999 - Osama bin Laden (1957–2011) was the founder of Al-Qaeda, the jihadist organization responsible for many high profile attacks, including the 1998 U.S. embassy bombings and the September 11 attacks.
The 1996 Khobar Towers bombing by Hezbollah Al-Hejaz killed 19 Americans, one Saudi, and wounded 372.
26 February 1993 – World Trade Center bombing, in New York City. 6 killed.
13 March 1993 – 1993 Bombay bombings. Mumbai, India. 257 dead, 713 injured.
16 April 1993 – Mehola Junction bombing, Mehola junction, West Bank. 1 dead
6 April 1994 – Afula Bus suicide bombing, Afula. 8 dead
13 April 1994 – Hadera bus station suicide bombing, Hadera. 5 dead
28 July 1994 – Buenos Aires, Argentina. Vehicle suicide bombing attack against AMIA building, the local Jewish community representation. 85 dead, more than 300 injured.
19 October 1994 – Dizengoff Street bus bombing, Tel Aviv. 22 dead
11 November 1994 – Netzarim Junction bicycle bombing, Netzarim. 3 dead
24 December 1994 – Air France Flight 8969 hijacking in Algiers by 3 members of Armed Islamic Group of Algeria and another terrorist. 7 killed including 4 hijackers.
22 January 1995 – Beit Lid massacre, Beit Lid Junction. 21 dead
9 April 1995 – Kfar Darom bus attack, Vicinity of Kfar Darom, Gaza Strip. 8 dead
24 July 1995 – Ramat Gan bus 20 bombing, Ramat Gan. 6 dead
21 August 1995 – Ramat Eshkol bus bombing, Jerusalem. 4 dead
25 February and 3 March 1996 – Jaffa Road bus bombings, Jerusalem. 45 dead, 55 injured
March 4, 1996 – Dizengoff Center suicide bombing, Tel Aviv. 13 dead
25 June 1996 – Khobar Towers bombing, 20 killed, 372 wounded.
21 March 1997 – Café Apropo bombing, Tel Aviv. 3 dead
30 July 1997 – 1997 Mahane Yehuda Market Bombings, Jerusalem. 16 dead
4 September 1997 – Ben Yehuda Street Bombing, Jerusalem. 5 dead
17 November 1997 – Luxor attack, 6 armed Islamic terrorists attack tourists at Egypts famous Luxor Ruins. 62 killed, 26 injured.
14 February 1998 – Bombing in Coimbatore, Tamil Nadu, India. 13 bombs explode within a 12 km radius. 46 killed and over 200 injured.
7 August 1998 – 1998 United States embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya. 224 dead. 4000+ injured.
4–16 September 1999 – The Russian apartment bombings were a series of explosions that hit four apartment blocks in the Russian cities of Buynaksk, Moscow, and Volgodonsk. The explosions occurred in Buynaksk on 4 September, Moscow on 9 and 13 September, and Volgodonsk on 16 September. 293 dead, 1000+ injured. Several other bombs were defused in Moscow at the time.

So if this is about who is more "righteous" in their vengeance, regrettably, the U.S wins.

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14-09-2012, 01:15 PM
RE: Thanks Muslims!
What troubles me about what I'm reading here (and it's widespread, not just on this board) is people don't seem to understand the whole context. First off, I'll even say neither do I because it's very complex and it goes far beyond my knowledge of history. However, I do know a few things and so I want to mention a small piece in that complex puzzle that I don't hear many people even sounding remotely aware of.

These problems didn't start with this movie or even 9/11. They didn't start with the hostage situation at the end of Carter's term either. They go back centuries. For centuries, Jews and Muslims have been fighting for control of land in the Middle East because it contains grounds that are religiously significant to both. At the end of World War II, the UN gave the land that is Israel to the Jews because of all they had suffered from Germany. Needless to say, this didn't make the Muslims very happy. From their perspective, the UN just butted into a centuries-long conflict and took a side. The US, as one of the most powerful countries in the UN, therefore became an enemy - and even more so after allying with Israel. THIS is a significant part of why the extremists hate us so much, but many Muslims in general in that region likely do as well, not just the extremists. Put yourself in their shoes. Can you really blame them for being angry? What if Hitler had won the war and gave the US to one if its allies? Do you think we would all just take it sitting down?

Now suicide bombings, beheadings, embassy attacks, terrorism, etc. are not a very productive way of dealing with the problem, but what choice do they really have? They want back what they believe is rightfully their land and they fully realize no amount of discussion is going to give it to them. They haven't been able to reach a compromise with the Jews for centuries. So they probably see it as take all land back or none and "all" isn't going to happen. So their choices are suck it up and live with it or fight back. But how can they fight against the powerful US? They can't. So all they can do is significant damage in various ways - our economy, our reputation, our comfort, etc. That's why they engage in terrorism. Not all Muslims in that area do because not all of them agree with those methods. But probably most share the anger at the US and the cause the extremists are fighting about. That probably explains a large part of the lack of condemnation of those actions by the more peaceful Muslims and from the leaders of the Islamic religion too.

If you understand the context, then you understand the embassy attack spurred by the movie wasn't really about the movie at all. That just fanned the already long-standing fire. And this is more about economics, politics, and people than it is about the Islamic religion itself. The religion aspect is just what has received the most media attention. It plays a role, but it's far from being completely responsible.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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14-09-2012, 01:24 PM
RE: Thanks Muslims!
I'm not sure if this thread is the correct place to ask this question, but here it goes:

I went to YouTube and pulled up "Islam: The Untold Story". Everything said it was the one from BBC Channel 4; the one the Muslims are so upset over and are bombing the shit out of everything about. It says it was made by Tom Holland. It's about an hour and a half long. I stopped watching it at about 45 minutes in, though, because it was pretty boring and, actually, all I heard from it was PRAISE for the Muslim people, nothing insulting. Maybe the insulting stuff comes later, then? Am I missing something somehow? Is this not the same film?

Also, this film seems to have been produced in the UK, not the US, unless I'm mistaken somehow. The people in the film had more British sounding accents, not American accents.

Is that seriously the movie they're pissing themselves over??
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14-09-2012, 01:35 PM
RE: Thanks Muslims!
(14-09-2012 01:24 PM)SlipStitch Wrote:  I'm not sure if this thread is the correct place to ask this question, but here it goes:

I went to YouTube and pulled up "Islam: The Untold Story". Everything said it was the one from BBC Channel 4; the one the Muslims are so upset over and are bombing the shit out of everything about. It says it was made by Tom Holland. It's about an hour and a half long. I stopped watching it at about 45 minutes in, though, because it was pretty boring and, actually, all I heard from it was PRAISE for the Muslim people, nothing insulting. Maybe the insulting stuff comes later, then? Am I missing something somehow? Is this not the same film?

Also, this film seems to have been produced in the UK, not the US, unless I'm mistaken somehow. The people in the film had more British sounding accents, not American accents.

Is that seriously the movie they're pissing themselves over??

You've got the wrong film. It's this one (14 min. excerpt).

Note the excellent acting, snappy dialog, and high production values.

Religious disputes are like arguments in a madhouse over which inmate really is Napoleon.
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14-09-2012, 02:17 PM (This post was last modified: 14-09-2012 02:22 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: Thanks Muslims!
Murder is never justified by historical knowledge.

Sure you can empathize with them, but empathy does not make their actions correct.

Maybe they should learn that behavior like this will only bring about trouble.

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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14-09-2012, 02:32 PM
RE: Thanks Muslims!
According to the WH, these protests are not a reaction to US policy but are solely a reaction to the movie which they call "reprehensible and disgusting". http://freebeacon.com/carney-protests-no...ed-states/

I don't know what pisses me off more about this: their placating islam due to a freakin film made by a moron or that they are so far in campaign mode that they can't utter one true word.
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14-09-2012, 02:49 PM
RE: Thanks Muslims!
Look, I get it.

There is an ideological war raging between the Christian world and the Muslim world. Likewise, there is an ideological war raging between the Christian mind and the Muslim mind. This war has been going on for what, 1400 years or so. And for about 1350 of those years, the scales were roughly in balance.

I somewhat liken those 1350 years to the US vs. Russia cold war that I grew up in. Sure, I knew there was tension, I knew that any president on either side could push a button and I would wink out of existence, I knew that both sides were frequently provoked enough that pushing the button sometimes might have seemed like a good idea. It was scary. But it was also completely out of my hands and, I hoped, the "balance of power" and/or "mutually assured destruction" would keep both sides from pushing the button. Either way, my life went on and I didn't dwell on it too much - it was way too big for me anyway.

Now that was probably how most Christians and most Muslims lived for those 1350 years. They knew about each other, knew about the tension, and knew that their leaders could at any time start (another) war that could impact their lives. But there was a "balance of power" that neither side could do much about. And it was way too big for them (the individuals), so they mostly went on with their lives without dwelling on it too much. And that worked, except for awkward years like the Crusades or Masada, etc. - but those are the exceptions, not the rule.

Then comes the last half-century. Suddenly the "balance of power" is gone. Any day now the Christian world could decide it's time for one final Crusade and wipe the Muslims off the face of the planet. And both sides know it. That doesn't create much stress in the Christian world, but it sure creates a lot of stress in the Muslim world. And all those acts of warfare during the last half-century, invasions, assassinations, puppet administrations, etc., that the Christian world has forced upon the Muslim world just keeps piling stressor upon stressor.

They're a powder keg waiting for a match.

And nobody is doing much of anything to fix the situation.

Meanwhile, their religious and political leaders (usually the same thing) are playing with matches. Some of them, anyway. And non-Muslims, like the infamous cartoonists and now the filmmaker in the recent situation, also like to play with matches from time to time.

It's a big mess.

One thing that would help is if the idiots who insist on playing with the matches, on both sides of this ideological war, would knock it off. We know they're touchy so why do we need to make fun of their prophet? What do we gain? Nothing. Their religious and political leaders need to stop preaching about the evils of the western infidels and start preaching about building bridges and living in peace. And everyone's government should stop mucking around in the Muslim parts of the world - no invasions, no puppet regimes, no peace-keeping, no building of democracy, and definitely no more shock-and-awe.

Maybe if we could all do that, maybe, just maybe, some of the pressure would go away, some of the stress would be less, and that powder keg could have a chance to diffuse a little.

Then we could all go back to killing each other over real issues, like whether our imaginary sky friend is more real than theirs.

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