That Damn Bigfoot Thing
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08-12-2014, 06:38 PM
RE: That Damn Bigfoot Thing
(08-12-2014 05:25 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  One more paper describing the unreliability of memory.

Eyewitness Memory is Unreliable by Marc Green PhD

Excerpt:

"4. Memory is personal

Human memory does not exist so that an observer may accurately report previously seen events. The actual, physical events are merely grist for the mill of interpretation. Each witness extracts an interpretation that is meaningful in terms of his own beliefs, experiences and needs. Once the interpretation occurs, the events themselves become relatively unimportant. Moreover, since each person interprets the events in terms of his own world view, different eyewitnesses observing the same event may have different interpretations and different memories.

Please note the bold and underlined text. In the O'Hare incident, they all described the same thing, not different things.

Quote:One more thing, all these studies underline the need for corroborating evidence from objective sources such as radar, photograph or video sources in addition to the human testimony most specifically when describing anything that appears to be violating the laws of physics!

I have always agreed with this.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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08-12-2014, 06:42 PM
RE: That Damn Bigfoot Thing
(08-12-2014 06:15 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 05:39 PM)Free Wrote:  I understand how you may want to make the comparison between the Fatima thing and the O'Hare thing, but here's a few points to ponder:

a)O'Hare witnesses did not know each other and were not expecting to see anything.
b)Fatima witness all gathered there with the expectation of seeing something extraordinary.

a) Many O'Hare witnesses did not know that anyone else was viewing the craft at the same time they were.
b) Fatima witnesses all began to see something unusual when a religious leader yelled out that something strange was going on with the sun.

a)None of the O'Hare witness demonstrated any preconceived beliefs in UFos or aliens.
b) All the Fatima witnessed were religious.

These are just some of the big differences between teh two events, and it is these massive differences that need to be considered when evaluating whether or not the comparison between the two events is actually fair.

I do not believe we can fairly compare the two events at all.


Actually, I placed my position at 90%, but not conclusive. There's always room for doubt.



Schemas is a possibility, I admitted that. However, like I said, we have multiple eyewitness here, not a singular eyewitness, and we need a better example for multiple eyewitnesses. You Schemas example does not seem to apply very well to multiple eyewitnesses since it is clearly geared to a singular witness.

You suggested a drone, but I find logical problems with that. Firstly, 8 years ago, there were no commercial drones. Secondly, the object described was too large to account for a drone. Thirdly, if it was a military drone or some kind of secret military craft, then why place it dangerously over a public airport where anybody can see it?

Optical illusion? Sure, that's possible. Problems? Craft was reported as moving straight up.


Almost certainly? No. about 50/50 if you been reading my posts on the other forum correctly.

50/50 that this was alien? Wow. OK.

You know what they say...”To a hammer all problems look like a nail”.

Anecdotal example: One of the things I do is teach fish identification. I take volunteers and students out to do surveys of speciation out on the reef. When we get back to the dock we review the surveys and I have observed the following - the neophytes make many mistakes but are quick to acknowledge them when challenged. The experts make very few mistakes but will butt heads repeatedly when challenged and will change their opinion reluctantly, if at all, even when conclusive evidence has been presented (such as a photo).

The neophytes may know 50 species and over report these and totally ignore unknown ones. The experts may know 300+ and are constantly looking to find new ones and extend known ranges for known species. They have a bias towards finding and reporting what falls outside the “normal” range.

The airport personnel are familiar with aircraft. Some of these might have been neophytes and the others real experts, the breakdown doesn’t matter in this instance. Neither group recognized the “craft”. The former will say I don’t know what it was but it could have been an aircraft I’m unfamiliar with. The latter, not having recognized it either and thinking of themselves as experts, will be biased towards reporting a non-earthly craft on the strength of their knowledge base. Their very expertise predisposes them to make a wrong assumption BECAUSE they couldn’t ID the craft. “I didn’t recognize it, it had to be alien.”

Food for thought.

You have made some very good reasoning and logical points!

My position has now dropped from 70% to 66%.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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08-12-2014, 06:48 PM
RE: That Damn Bigfoot Thing
(08-12-2014 06:23 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 05:39 PM)Free Wrote:  I understand how you may want to make the comparison between the Fatima thing and the O'Hare thing, but here's a few points to ponder:

a)O'Hare witnesses did not know each other and were not expecting to see anything.
b)Fatima witness all gathered there with the expectation of seeing something extraordinary.

They sure as hell were expecting to see aircraft over an airport!

But one they could not identify? One that was stationary and out of place over a hangar?

Consider

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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08-12-2014, 06:57 PM (This post was last modified: 08-12-2014 07:02 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: That Damn Bigfoot Thing
(08-12-2014 06:48 PM)Free Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 06:23 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  They sure as hell were expecting to see aircraft over an airport!

But one they could not identify?

Consider

Are you not reading my entire posts Frusty

I explained how this could happen with my anecdotal story.
Secondly you are moving the goalposts on me. If you aren’t going to acknowledge the valid points I’m making then there is no reason to continue here. I am willing to engage with you as long as there is some semblence of rationality in the discussion, if not then I’m not interested.

Edit: You snuck in a couple of posts and edits while I was writing this one.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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08-12-2014, 07:03 PM
RE: That Damn Bigfoot Thing
(08-12-2014 06:57 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 06:48 PM)Free Wrote:  But one they could not identify?

Consider

Are you not reading my entire posts Frusty

I explained how this could happen with my anecdotal story.
Secondly you are moving the goalposts on me. If you aren’t going to acknowledge the valid points I’m making then there is no reason to continue here. I am willing to engage with you as long as there is some semblence of rationality in the discussion, if not then I’m not interested.

Edit: You snuck in a couple of posts while I was writing this one.

But i did read your entire post.

You said that they were expecting to see aircraft over the airport, and of course they were!

My point was that they were not expecting to see an aircraft that they could not identify, hanging out over a hangar.

I feel this invalidated the other objection you had which was :

Quote:All of the O’Hare witnesses were expecting to see aircraft overhead as I said above.

I simply felt that since my point was that they were not expecting to see an aircraft that they could not identify, hanging out over a hangar, then there was no need to respond to the rest.

Or was there?

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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08-12-2014, 07:08 PM
RE: That Damn Bigfoot Thing
(08-12-2014 06:42 PM)Free Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 06:15 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  50/50 that this was alien? Wow. OK.

You know what they say...”To a hammer all problems look like a nail”.

Anecdotal example: One of the things I do is teach fish identification. I take volunteers and students out to do surveys of speciation out on the reef. When we get back to the dock we review the surveys and I have observed the following - the neophytes make many mistakes but are quick to acknowledge them when challenged. The experts make very few mistakes but will butt heads repeatedly when challenged and will change their opinion reluctantly, if at all, even when conclusive evidence has been presented (such as a photo).

The neophytes may know 50 species and over report these and totally ignore unknown ones. The experts may know 300+ and are constantly looking to find new ones and extend known ranges for known species. They have a bias towards finding and reporting what falls outside the “normal” range.

The airport personnel are familiar with aircraft. Some of these might have been neophytes and the others real experts, the breakdown doesn’t matter in this instance. Neither group recognized the “craft”. The former will say I don’t know what it was but it could have been an aircraft I’m unfamiliar with. The latter, not having recognized it either and thinking of themselves as experts, will be biased towards reporting a non-earthly craft on the strength of their knowledge base. Their very expertise predisposes them to make a wrong assumption BECAUSE they couldn’t ID the craft. “I didn’t recognize it, it had to be alien.”

Food for thought.

You have made some very good reasoning and logical points!

My position has now dropped from 70% to 66%.

I’m honored. Undecided

Anyway I’ll boil down the O’Hare incident as follows:

Eyewitnesses report an UFO.
Nothing was detected on radar, caught on tape or photographed.
Nearly 100% probability of anything other than alien craft explains this.
Anything else is pure conjecture.

Big Grin

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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08-12-2014, 07:12 PM
RE: That Damn Bigfoot Thing
(08-12-2014 07:08 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 06:42 PM)Free Wrote:  You have made some very good reasoning and logical points!

My position has now dropped from 70% to 66%.

I’m honored. Undecided

Anyway I’ll boil down the O’Hare incident as follows:

Eyewitnesses report an UFO.
Nothing was detected on radar, caught on tape or photographed.
Nearly 100% probability of anything other than alien craft explains this.
Anything else is pure conjecture.

Big Grin

I boil it down to this:

Eyewitnesses report a UFO.
Nothing on radar, photo(s) authenticity disputed, transcript evidence available.
Nearly 50% probability of anything other than alien craft explains this.
Anything else is pure conjecture.

Smile

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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08-12-2014, 07:13 PM
RE: That Damn Bigfoot Thing
(08-12-2014 07:03 PM)Free Wrote:  My point was that they were not expecting to see an aircraft that they could not identify, hanging out over a hangar.

I don’t see how this invalidates my point of them expecting to see aircraft. Same as with my students expecting to see fish then seeing an octopus. They weren’t expecting an octopus but we all know they exist. (we know drones, lenticular clouds, optical illusions, schemas exist).

(08-12-2014 07:03 PM)‘Free Wrote:  I feel this invalidated the other objection you had which was :

Quote:All of the O’Hare witnesses were expecting to see aircraft overhead as I said above.

I simply felt that since my point was that they were not expecting to see an aircraft that they could not identify, hanging out over a hangar, then there was no need to respond to the rest.

Or was there?

Your original point was that this event and that of Fatima were not similar becasue of X and I think I made my point that they are.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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08-12-2014, 07:19 PM (This post was last modified: 08-12-2014 07:33 PM by Free.)
RE: That Damn Bigfoot Thing
(08-12-2014 07:13 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 07:03 PM)Free Wrote:  My point was that they were not expecting to see an aircraft that they could not identify, hanging out over a hangar.

I don’t see how this invalidates my point of them expecting to see aircraft. Same as with my students expecting to see fish then seeing an octopus. They weren’t expecting an octopus but we all know they exist. (we know drones, lenticular clouds, optical illusions, schemas exist).

(08-12-2014 07:03 PM)‘Free Wrote:  I feel this invalidated the other objection you had which was :


I simply felt that since my point was that they were not expecting to see an aircraft that they could not identify, hanging out over a hangar, then there was no need to respond to the rest.

Or was there?

Your original point was that this event and that of Fatima were not similar becasue of X and I think I made my point that they are.

Perhaps I should have made the wording more clear? Here, try it again:

I understand how you may want to make the comparison between the Fatima thing and the O'Hare thing, but here's a few points to ponder:

a) O'Hare witnesses were not expecting to see an aircraft they could not identify hanging stationary over a hangar.
b) Fatima witness all gathered there with the expectation of seeing something extraordinary.

a) Many O'Hare witnesses did not know that anyone else was viewing the craft at the same time they were.
b) Fatima witnesses all began to see something unusual when a religious leader yelled out that something strange was going on with the sun.

a) None of the O'Hare witness demonstrated any preconceived beliefs in UFOs or aliens.
b) All the Fatima witnessed were religious.

These are just some of the big differences between the two events, and it is these massive differences that need to be considered when evaluating whether or not the comparison between the two events is actually fair.

I do not believe we can fairly compare the two events at all.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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08-12-2014, 07:35 PM
RE: That Damn Bigfoot Thing
(08-12-2014 07:19 PM)Free Wrote:  Perhaps I should have made the wording more clear? Here, try it again:

I understand how you may want to make the comparison between the Fatima thing and the O'Hare thing, but here's a few points to ponder:

a) O'Hare witnesses did not know each other and were not expecting to see an aircraft they could not identify hanging stationary over a hangar.
b) Fatima witness all gathered there with the expectation of seeing something extraordinary.

I repeat same as with my students expecting to see fish then seeing an octopus. They weren’t expecting an octopus but we all know they exist. (we know drones, lenticular clouds, optical illusions, schemas exist).

(08-12-2014 07:19 PM)Free Wrote:  a) None of the O'Hare witness demonstrated any preconceived beliefs in UFOs or aliens.
b) All the Fatima witnessed were religious.

I don’t see how it can be proven that the witnesses had or didn’t have preconceived beliefs in UFOs or aliens. I’m sure they weren’t asked this when they applied for the job.

(08-12-2014 07:19 PM)Free Wrote:  These are just some of the big differences between the two events, and it is these massive differences that need to be considered when evaluating whether or not the comparison between the two events is actually fair.

I do not believe we can fairly compare the two events at all.

I still disagree. People looked up into the sky and say they saw something they could not explain or identify.

Free, go back to my post with the hyperlinks to papers on the unreliabilty of witnesses and see why humans make such terrible eyewitnesses, our preconceptions, biases and our desire to satisfy our evolved sense of pattern recognition all work against us.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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