That Damn UFO Thing
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27-11-2014, 01:19 PM
RE: That Damn UFO Thing
(27-11-2014 12:21 PM)Free Wrote:  
(27-11-2014 12:08 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Let me put it like this, in the ferguson case that just wrapped up all the eyewitness testimony was found to be impossible by forensic evidence. Eyewitnesses are the lowest form of evidence and the easiest to corrupt the most prone to memory error and the most prone to adding events that did not happen. The more they talk about it the more likely they are to add things.

All the eyewitness testimony was found to be impossible?

No, not all.

Entirely different ball game with O'Hare.

1. It was daytime.
2. All witnesses were experienced with aircraft.
3. The object was seen from similar vantage points because of its location.
4. Consistency was found in the eyewitness' accounts.
5. No contradictions between the witnesses has been reported.

And yet somehow no photograph or any other recordings were made in some of the busiest airspace on the planet. Hmm.

And yet somehow the "similar vantage points" only included people in one single precise location out of many thousands in the airport, and the purported "object" was not visible from even a hundred metres in either direction. Hmm.

Even if we say there was an actual physical object and not merely a visual artifact or atmospheric phenomenon... why the hell would we then conclude "aliens"?

At best what you seem to be doing, Free, is using a bunch of unknowns to draw spurious conclusions to support each other. That's fallacious.

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27-11-2014, 01:25 PM
RE: That Damn UFO Thing
Don't many "miracles" and similar supernatural sightings also have hundreds or even thousands of "witnesses"? Consider

If all of them described sawing a vehicle, wouldn't it be safe to assume that it was man-made, since alien vehicles would probably look nothing like what we know as a "vehicle"?

And why are aliens the best possible explanation? Why not a secret government experiment? Why not a hidden genius testing his new toy? Why is alien life so much more probable than other, relatively normal, explanations?

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27-11-2014, 01:36 PM
RE: That Damn UFO Thing
(27-11-2014 01:19 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(27-11-2014 12:21 PM)Free Wrote:  All the eyewitness testimony was found to be impossible?

No, not all.

Entirely different ball game with O'Hare.

1. It was daytime.
2. All witnesses were experienced with aircraft.
3. The object was seen from similar vantage points because of its location.
4. Consistency was found in the eyewitness' accounts.
5. No contradictions between the witnesses has been reported.

And yet somehow no photograph or any other recordings were made in some of the busiest airspace on the planet. Hmm.

Many crimes are committed without photographs or recordings, yet those criminals are convicted upon eyewitness accounts.

This demonstrates that the lack of photos or recordings proves nothing. Besides, if a recording or video appeared on YouTube the "It's FAKE" banters would be all over the place, regardless if it was real or not.

Quote:And yet somehow the "similar vantage points" only included people in one single precise location out of many thousands in the airport, and the purported "object" was not visible from even a hundred metres in either direction. Hmm.

They were not in any single precise location at all. There were pilots in cockpits, managers inside buildings, workers taxiing planes, and others in various locations.

All those workers had a clear advantage to witness the object since the object was outside and most of the workers were outside.

Quote:Even if we say there was an actual physical object and not merely a visual artifact or atmospheric phenomenon... why the hell would we then conclude "aliens"?

We don't need to conclude it was aliens, but only posit the best plausible explanation. It proves nothing EXCEPT what the most plausible explanation is according to the evidence.

Arguments such as this are based upon persuasion, not conclusiveness. If you are looking for conclusiveness, you are in the wrong argument.

Quote:At best what you seem to be doing, Free, is using a bunch of unknowns to draw spurious conclusions to support each other. That's fallacious.

And what you are doing is aiming for conclusiveness in a persuasive argument when no such conclusiveness is available.

And that is futile.

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27-11-2014, 01:42 PM
RE: That Damn UFO Thing
(27-11-2014 01:18 PM)Free Wrote:  I do agree that it doesn't prove it was aliens, but in all fairness, since there is no other known explanation better then aliens then the alien position appears to be the most plausible.

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27-11-2014, 01:43 PM
RE: That Damn UFO Thing
(27-11-2014 01:18 PM)Free Wrote:  But they know what they saw.

No. They know what they THINK they saw. There is a huge difference between the two statements. I am willing to accept that they remember seeing something and that they are describing what they remember as accurately as they can. I am also willing to accept that they think that it was a vehicle that they saw. That does not in any way mean that what they think they saw is actually what they saw.

Theists tell me that the big bang can only have happened if there is a god and the fact that I can't give them a better explanation means that they are right. What else could it possibly be?

Ghost hunters claim that spirits exist and the fact that I can't offer a better explanation of why their thermometer shows a drop in temperature means that they are right. What else could it possibly be?

Bigfoot hunters claim that there is a sizable population of large ape-like creatures living throughout North America and the fact that I can't explain all the sightings and strange sounds means that they are right. What else could it possibly be?

UFO enthusiasts tell me that we are being visited by aliens and the fact that I can't explain what somebody claims to have seen means that they are right. What else could it possibly be?

Sorry, I don't buy any of it. I am certain that many of the UFO claims are the result of not seeing something clearly, seeing unfamiliar natural phenomena, seeing unfamiliar aircraft, seeing experimental aircraft, delusions, and hoaxes. I am also certain that leaves many cases that appear to be honest, rational accounts that have no good explanation. The answer to them is "I don't know" and not "what else can it be".

You are far too willing to accept conclusions despite having limited objective, verifiable facts for my taste.

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27-11-2014, 01:56 PM
RE: That Damn UFO Thing
(27-11-2014 01:43 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(27-11-2014 01:18 PM)Free Wrote:  But they know what they saw.

No. They know what they THINK they saw. There is a huge difference between the two statements. I am willing to accept that they remember seeing something and that they are describing what they remember as accurately as they can. I am also willing to accept that they think that it was a vehicle that they saw. That does not in any way mean that what they think they saw is actually what they saw.

Theists tell me that the big bang can only have happened if there is a god and the fact that I can't give them a better explanation means that they are right. What else could it possibly be?

Ghost hunters claim that spirits exist and the fact that I can't offer a better explanation of why their thermometer shows a drop in temperature means that they are right. What else could it possibly be?

Bigfoot hunters claim that there is a sizable population of large ape-like creatures living throughout North America and the fact that I can't explain all the sightings and strange sounds means that they are right. What else could it possibly be?

UFO enthusiasts tell me that we are being visited by aliens and the fact that I can't explain what somebody claims to have seen means that they are right. What else could it possibly be?

Sorry, I don't buy any of it. I am certain that many of the UFO claims are the result of not seeing something clearly, seeing unfamiliar natural phenomena, seeing unfamiliar aircraft, seeing experimental aircraft, delusions, and hoaxes. I am also certain that leaves many cases that appear to be honest, rational accounts that have no good explanation. The answer to them is "I don't know" and not "what else can it be".

You are far too willing to accept conclusions despite having limited objective, verifiable facts for my taste.

These types of arguments are all about persuasiveness, not conclusiveness.

I am absolutely willing to change my position on all this if a better argument can be posited.

However, no one here is actually providing any alternate explanation that fits the eyewitness reports better than my argument.

Saying that they "don't know what they saw," or "it wasn't a vehicle" et al, does not provide an alternative argument whatsoever.

All you are doing is disagreeing with 12 eyewitness who all claim to know what they saw. So it's like this:

Judge: Who saw a UFO?
12 Witness: We did, your honor.
You: No they didn't, sir.
Judge: Were you there?
You: No sir,
Judge: Then how the fuck do you know that they didn't see a UFO?

What it comes down to is that you simply don't believe the 12 witnesses.

Isn't that more accurate? And that's okay, nobody is forcing anyone to believe anything.

But I know that if 12 witness seen a car crash, and none of them could identify the make of the car, it by no means indicates that a car crash never happened.

Wink

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27-11-2014, 02:02 PM
RE: That Damn UFO Thing
(27-11-2014 08:46 AM)Free Wrote:  
(27-11-2014 02:49 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  I grew up on an island in Atlantic Canada as well. A lot of mushrooms around. Apparently flashbacks are common if a person eats to many but I've never experienced one nor have I witnessed anyone have one (as far as I can remember). Some good shit though. I know a guy who claims he was being chased by a giant pinball. Pfft. All I seen was tracers but looking at my hand through a glass table was pretty trippy. And the thoughts! Deep or stupid? Who knows? Anyway there was this one time that I did a real awesome job of keeping a soccer ball in the air and I suck at soccer. I don't know if there was an actual ball.

lol

Yeah, P.E.I.

I am originally from "The Crick."

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27-11-2014, 02:04 PM
RE: That Damn UFO Thing
(27-11-2014 02:02 PM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  
(27-11-2014 08:46 AM)Free Wrote:  lol

Yeah, P.E.I.

I am originally from "The Crick."

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You might think I'm goofy, but the man in the moon is a Newfie!

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27-11-2014, 02:05 PM
RE: That Damn UFO Thing
(27-11-2014 01:56 PM)Free Wrote:  However, no one here is actually providing any alternate explanation that fits the eyewitness reports better than my argument.

(27-11-2014 01:25 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  Why not a secret government experiment? Why not a hidden genius testing his new toy? Why is alien life so much more probable than other, relatively normal, explanations?

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27-11-2014, 02:06 PM
RE: That Damn UFO Thing
(27-11-2014 02:05 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(27-11-2014 01:56 PM)Free Wrote:  However, no one here is actually providing any alternate explanation that fits the eyewitness reports better than my argument.

(27-11-2014 01:25 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  Why not a secret government experiment? Why not a hidden genius testing his new toy? Why is alien life so much more probable than other, relatively normal, explanations?

Sure.

Now make it fit the eyewitness accounts, and provide other evidence to support those theories.

Tongue

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