That mother fucking Jesus!
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09-09-2012, 09:21 PM
RE: That mother fucking Jesus!
Hey, Dark.

I see no reason why you would come to the "logical" conclusion that there is no free will. You haven't offered an argument other than "cuz I think so."

From the Christian perspective, God gave humans free will. So there's free will. The God-scripted universe is inconsistent with Christian theology.

From a scientific perspective, there's no evidence of causality. I said it was AN argument, not a good one.

From the perspective of simultaneous time, there is nothing inherent in the theory that precludes free will. Just because time exists simultaneously does not mean that people were not able to make decisions.

If you choose to believe there is no free will, more power to you.

Just so there's no confusion, I was not saying that the only two options are causality and the scripted universe. I said that simultaneous time was a different argument from both.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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09-09-2012, 10:14 PM
RE: That mother fucking Jesus!
(08-09-2012 09:37 PM)Diablo666 Wrote:  We constantly see people thanking god when they win, but you never see them pass blame when they lose. No one ever says "the game was in the bag, but that mother fucking Jesus caused me to miss the block."

So, I have to ask how do religious people compartmentalize the ideas that god can help them win, but not cause them to lose.

Also, isn't god supposed to be all powerful and all knowing? Doesn't that mean that this is all already predetermined? So what are you thanking him for? The decision was made long long long ago, before you was ever a thought. That's like thanking your parents for not using a condom 30 years ago.

Also, why would such a being care about your actions? Especially for something as trivial as a game? How insecure is god that he needs us to pray to him? Its like me worrying about what the ants in my backyard think of me.

Also, just how egotistical are you to think that he cares enough about you to help you win the game? Of all the problems in the world, how can you actually think the all mighty stopped to help you win a game?

This whole thing kind of reminds me of that movie "Groundhogs day". The main character of the movie works as a news anchor, and is essentially a douche bag. Yet, God, in his infinite wisdom lets him redo the day over and over until he scores the new hot chick that joined his news team. Get that? He looped the whole universe, so this jackass, who didn't deserve shit, could BANG THE NEW GIRL! Makes perfect sense right? But that's how egotistical these loons are.


And for that matter, if God already knows what will happen, as he caused it, then free will does not exist. Therefore, sin does not exist.
Its like that episode of Futurama where Bender, a robot, could not be convicted of a crime as he was actions were all part of a program. He had no free will, and could therefore not make any decisions, thus could not make the decision to commit a crime.

The mindset is victory of any sorts is a holy predicament because it is one sided, losing is the same way but with failure it is always expected out of us, you never see a winning football team lay claim that if the coin landed on the opposite side at the beginning of the game, the decision would have changed hands, but to score seems, especially at the expense of how we are constantly told that to reach further for an extra "10 percent" defines why outrunning the opponent is justified. I am certain none of these athletes are downright serious with their god plugging celebrations, it is taught to them that a touchdown accomplished with the entire grid population behind you separates you from everyone else, and if they're cocky enough, a collaboration of this and the song "Jesus loves me" produces stupid reactions.

Leviticus does not justify stupidity, but it is more than enough to define corruption of the human mind.

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10-09-2012, 09:44 AM
RE: That mother fucking Jesus!
(09-09-2012 09:21 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Dark.

I see no reason why you would come to the "logical" conclusion that there is no free will. You haven't offered an argument other than "cuz I think so."

From the Christian perspective, God gave humans free will. So there's free will. The God-scripted universe is inconsistent with Christian theology.

From a scientific perspective, there's no evidence of causality. I said it was AN argument, not a good one.

From the perspective of simultaneous time, there is nothing inherent in the theory that precludes free will. Just because time exists simultaneously does not mean that people were not able to make decisions.

If you choose to believe there is no free will, more power to you.

Just so there's no confusion, I was not saying that the only two options are causality and the scripted universe. I said that simultaneous time was a different argument from both.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

In our hypothetical the universe that was created by an omnipotent and omniscient God, using your painting analogy, the painting can not be changed, it is already painted. That is the only logical conclusion I can come too. If you can come to another then I don't understand how. I would think of the simultaneous universe not as a painting but as a film. Each 'still' exists at the same time and can not be changed. We perceive the images as moving forward but they all exist and any choice is a mere illusion. I hope you can understand that because I can not think of a better way of explaining my logic at the moment.

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10-09-2012, 06:03 PM
RE: That mother fucking Jesus!
Hey, Dark.

Quote: If you can come to another then I don't understand how.

Yes I can. Easily. Because I'm not saying that the universe is a painting. Not at all. I just suggested that that was an argument. Not my argument, an argument. I personally don't believe it. That's how I come to a different conclusion.

The film analogy is flawed. Yes, it all exists. So if someone was omniscient, or if they could step out of space time, maybe they could watch whatever part they wanted just like we go to whatever part of a streamed video we want. But that does not mean that choice is an illusion. Just because time does not unfold the way we thought, doesn't mean that at each point in time, people are incapable of making a decision. Like film, it's more like the entire stream of occurrences throughout time were captured on film. But the moments in each frame are moments in time.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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10-09-2012, 07:40 PM
RE: That mother fucking Jesus!
(10-09-2012 06:03 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Dark.

Quote: If you can come to another then I don't understand how.

Yes I can. Easily. Because I'm not saying that the universe is a painting. Not at all. I just suggested that that was an argument. Not my argument, an argument. I personally don't believe it. That's how I come to a different conclusion.

The film analogy is flawed. Yes, it all exists. So if someone was omniscient, or if they could step out of space time, maybe they could watch whatever part they wanted just like we go to whatever part of a streamed video we want. But that does not mean that choice is an illusion. Just because time does not unfold the way we thought, doesn't mean that at each point in time, people are incapable of making a decision. Like film, it's more like the entire stream of occurrences throughout time were captured on film. But the moments in each frame are moments in time.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

If it is an argument that you don't buy into then it's not a conclusion you came to. It may be a conclusion that you may understand (Obviously I don't). To me your perspective is illogical, and and disagree with you. That is where I think this ends. Perhaps one of us will have an epiphany and see the problem from the others perspective but I appreciate your attempt to explain it to me anyway Thumbsup. I would like to think I could understand your position better if we were not limited to back and forths via a forum. To me you are an outsider among a group of outsiders. I mean that in the best possible way. I look forward to more conversations with you.

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