The 5 worst things
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11-11-2012, 05:49 AM (This post was last modified: 11-11-2012 05:56 AM by Vera.)
RE: The 5 worst things
(11-11-2012 05:22 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  I take issue with the statement because I do not feel an accurate comparison can be drawn between the ideals of the two, highly opposed systems (given that during the time of Nazism, Hitler destroyed the much hated and rival Communist Movement to ensure his our success.) The theories between two hold greatly different viewpoints and reasoning, effectively standing in contrast of one another.

In practice however the two movements do hold a startling trend of similarities.

(Also, bringing the Germans of that time period I feel does not help the case as the nation effectively split between the two ideals until the communist movement was abolished by Hitler, considering the colossal failure that was the Weimar Republic, the people did not seem to have much faith in democratic solutions to the problems and thus sought the two extremes.)
A movement must be examined in light of the people behind it, so bringing up the Germans of that time was entirely valid. It doesn't matter that it wasn't all Germans who supported it. Do you think all Russians supported the 1917 revolution? I won't even mention the Eastern European countries where it was just forced upon us and that was that.

http://andersfloderus.com/nazi.html I'm not saying this is the ultimate authority on nazism and communism, but it does get a lot of things right.

I think it was Chas who said somewhere else on these boards that Capitalism was dog-eat-dog kind of thing and with Communism it was vice versa. Replace Nazism with Capitalism and you won't be far off.

Also, even if the ones behind the revolutions did have the best intentions (and the vast majority of them didn't), I really don't give a crap about their intentions, when the result was so horrendous. Yes, Orwell had it right all along: "One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship... The object of power is power.”

This sums it up perfectly: http://www.panarchy.org/orwell/ignorance.1949.html

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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11-11-2012, 05:49 AM
RE: The 5 worst things
(11-11-2012 03:26 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(11-11-2012 03:16 AM)Idlecuriosity Wrote:  ... however in communism the renunciation of free will is a pre-requisite.

No such thing as free-will.
I assume you mean "personal choice".
If you like, yes.
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11-11-2012, 05:51 AM
RE: The 5 worst things
What's wrong with perfect communism?
Beside that it's impossible in todays society?

Someone who drops out of school at age 15, dicks around for three years then gets a job greeting people at Wal Mart gets the same reward as someone who finished high school, goes to collage, gets their degree, goes on to work in the work force, works hard and manages to climb the ladder, gets a really good job, then perhaps goes on to start their own business with their knowledge and becomes very successful in that venture.
Both have the same shit, but the later obviously put in far far far far more effort.
People who favor pure communism are people like Birdman who work at shit jobs and have so for very long periods of time and will so for the rest of their life because they are unwilling to work at it and change their situation because for some ungodly reason they feel entitled to drive the same car, live in the same house, have the same nice things etc.. as everyone else even though thy haven't done SHIT to earn it.
Pure communism is for poor people who are JEALOUS and unwilling to change their situation and feel entitled just because they poped out some bitches vagina. News flash sons, we all poped out some bitches vagina, it's nothing special.
Capitalism has its flaws yes, but it still rewards those that get their asses into gear, head down and puts in the fucking effort. I don't believe we are entitled to anything, you gotta work for it and capitalism holds true to that. Oh and this shit about how people are born rich, yeah well you're born far better off then some guy somewhere in Africa so..

That's why I hate communism.

I don't talk gay, I don't walk gay, it's like people don't even know I'm gay unless I'm blowing them.
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11-11-2012, 05:55 AM
RE: The 5 worst things
(11-11-2012 05:30 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(11-11-2012 04:36 AM)Vera Wrote:  Hey, I resent the implication that I was preaching. I ain't no preacher, never was and never will be. We were just having a discussion of ideas Yes
Okay, now that that's out of the way, I believe we are thinking more or less about the same thing, it's just that I refuse to call it communism (and not just because I hate labels, regimes, organised schools of thought, basically, anything restraining that tries to do the thinking and moral choosing for you with a set of rules). Back when most people lived in small villages, the community would take care of its weakest members (mentally retarded people, orphans, its poorest members, etc.). That was not communism, it was basic human nature and decency, and our social nature at work. Of course, then our 'villages', so to speak, got much bigger and it became much more difficult to have a community of this type. Hopefully, that's what will happen some time in the future. And the road there is through evolution. And education.

Also, much as it pains me, greed is a very strong factor in all of this. It's innate to humans and extremely difficult to get rid of. Speaking of that ability and need thing, during the communist regime, a guy here bought all the bread of one bakery and said everyone can have as much as they needed, for free. Communism in action, you know - everyone would only take as much as they needed. Well, guess what - people starting taking heaps and heaps of bread and the bakery ran out of it in about 15 minutes (needless to say, the guy got sent to prison).
What exactly about my point about nazism don't you agree with? That it didn't seem good to an oppressed and heavily-punished German people after the idiocy of the WWI treaties, that were bound to lead to something like this? And no, I'm not saying it's right.


I really don't want to play the age card, but when I was your age, I, too, thought that revolutions were sometimes needed. I don't anymore. I'm not talking rebelling against oppression, though.
Vera, you probably know this, but there is an idiom in the some places, "preaching to the choir" .. it doesn't really mean YOU are "preaching"... just that "what you said" we all, already agree on. I'm sure that's what was meant, not that YOU are "preaching".

There are many forms of "communism". The Kibbutzes in Israel can't be said to be awful. They freely joined, and one can leave if they want. The "communism" of the religious communities, for example of monastics, are not evil. Maybe the particular version of state sponsored Marxist Communism that was practiced in certain countries was a failure, but the term as used here needs further definition.
I know, I was joking about the preaching thing Smile

And yeah, the term here does cause some of the problems (communism, I mean). But even if it were a good way of describing what you're talking about (and I'm not sure it is), the mere fact that it's so loaded makes it highly problematic.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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11-11-2012, 05:58 AM
RE: The 5 worst things
(11-11-2012 05:30 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(11-11-2012 04:36 AM)Vera Wrote:  Hey, I resent the implication that I was preaching. I ain't no preacher, never was and never will be. We were just having a discussion of ideas Yes
Okay, now that that's out of the way, I believe we are thinking more or less about the same thing, it's just that I refuse to call it communism (and not just because I hate labels, regimes, organised schools of thought, basically, anything restraining that tries to do the thinking and moral choosing for you with a set of rules). Back when most people lived in small villages, the community would take care of its weakest members (mentally retarded people, orphans, its poorest members, etc.). That was not communism, it was basic human nature and decency, and our social nature at work. Of course, then our 'villages', so to speak, got much bigger and it became much more difficult to have a community of this type. Hopefully, that's what will happen some time in the future. And the road there is through evolution. And education.

Also, much as it pains me, greed is a very strong factor in all of this. It's innate to humans and extremely difficult to get rid of. Speaking of that ability and need thing, during the communist regime, a guy here bought all the bread of one bakery and said everyone can have as much as they needed, for free. Communism in action, you know - everyone would only take as much as they needed. Well, guess what - people starting taking heaps and heaps of bread and the bakery ran out of it in about 15 minutes (needless to say, the guy got sent to prison).
What exactly about my point about nazism don't you agree with? That it didn't seem good to an oppressed and heavily-punished German people after the idiocy of the WWI treaties, that were bound to lead to something like this? And no, I'm not saying it's right.


I really don't want to play the age card, but when I was your age, I, too, thought that revolutions were sometimes needed. I don't anymore. I'm not talking rebelling against oppression, though.
Vera, you probably know this, but there is an idiom in the some places, "preaching to the choir" .. it doesn't really mean YOU are "preaching"... just that "what you said" we all, already agree on. I'm sure that's what was meant, not that YOU are "preaching".

There are many forms of "communism". The Kibbutzes in Israel can't be said to be awful. They freely joined, and one can leave if they want. The "communism" of the religious communities, for example of monastics, are not evil. Maybe the particular version of state sponsored Marxist Communism that was practiced in certain countries was a failure, but the term as used here needs further definition.

I take your point. When talking about communism I'm refering to the Marxist/Leninist/Maoist ideology, collectivisation of the means of production, the notion that individual choice is secondary to the wishes of the system/party/state.
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11-11-2012, 06:10 AM
RE: The 5 worst things
(11-11-2012 05:49 AM)Vera Wrote:  
(11-11-2012 05:22 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  I take issue with the statement because I do not feel an accurate comparison can be drawn between the ideals of the two, highly opposed systems (given that during the time of Nazism, Hitler destroyed the much hated and rival Communist Movement to ensure his our success.) The theories between two hold greatly different viewpoints and reasoning, effectively standing in contrast of one another.

In practice however the two movements do hold a startling trend of similarities.

(Also, bringing the Germans of that time period I feel does not help the case as the nation effectively split between the two ideals until the communist movement was abolished by Hitler, considering the colossal failure that was the Weimar Republic, the people did not seem to have much faith in democratic solutions to the problems and thus sought the two extremes.)
A movement must be examined in light of the people behind it, so bringing up the Germans of that time was entirely valid. It doesn't matter that it wasn't all Germans who supported it. Do you think all Russians supported the 1917 revolution? I won't even mention the Eastern European countries where it was just forced upon us and that was that.

http://andersfloderus.com/nazi.html I'm not saying this is the ultimate authority on nazism and communism, but it does get a lot of things right.

I think it was Chas who said somewhere else on these boards that Capitalism was dog-eat-dog kind of thing and with Communism it was vice versa. Replace Nazism with Capitalism and you won't be far off.

Also, even if the ones behind the revolutions did have the best intentions (and the vast majority of them didn't), I really don't give a crap about their intentions, when the result was so horrendous. Yes, Orwell had it right all along: "One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship... The object of power is power.”

This sums it up perfectly: http://www.panarchy.org/orwell/ignorance.1949.html
I know when I am outdone, the trophy goes too you this time.

I'll best somebody on here one of these days....

A single action is worth more than the words it takes to describe it.
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11-11-2012, 06:16 AM
RE: The 5 worst things
(11-11-2012 06:10 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  I know when I am outdone, the trophy goes too you this time.

I'll best somebody on here one of these days....
Hmm, that sounded a bit like - "I give up, her yap is bigger than mine" Consider

I honestly believe we see eye to eye about a lot of the things discussed here; the disagreements were much more a question of semantics and perspective (also, I do feel strongly about communism, since my country was screwed up so badly (and possibly beyond repair) by it).

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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11-11-2012, 06:56 AM
RE: The 5 worst things
(11-11-2012 06:16 AM)Vera Wrote:  
(11-11-2012 06:10 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  I know when I am outdone, the trophy goes too you this time.

I'll best somebody on here one of these days....
Hmm, that sounded a bit like - "I give up, her yap is bigger than mine" Consider

I honestly believe we see eye to eye about a lot of the things discussed here; the disagreements were much more a question of semantics and perspective (also, I do feel strongly about communism, since my country was screwed up so badly (and possibly beyond repair) by it).
It's not that so much as "I can't really refute that."

But yeah, probably all semantics.... But that's how things seem to happen around here...

A single action is worth more than the words it takes to describe it.
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11-11-2012, 07:10 AM
RE: The 5 worst things
(11-11-2012 05:51 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  What's wrong with perfect communism?
Beside that it's impossible in todays society?

Someone who drops out of school at age 15, dicks around for three years then gets a job greeting people at Wal Mart gets the same reward as someone who finished high school, goes to collage, gets their degree, goes on to work in the work force, works hard and manages to climb the ladder, gets a really good job, then perhaps goes on to start their own business with their knowledge and becomes very successful in that venture.
Both have the same shit, but the later obviously put in far far far far more effort.
People who favor pure communism are people like Birdman who work at shit jobs and have so for very long periods of time and will so for the rest of their life because they are unwilling to work at it and change their situation because for some ungodly reason they feel entitled to drive the same car, live in the same house, have the same nice things etc.. as everyone else even though thy haven't done SHIT to earn it.
Pure communism is for poor people who are JEALOUS and unwilling to change their situation and feel entitled just because they poped out some bitches vagina. News flash sons, we all poped out some bitches vagina, it's nothing special.
Capitalism has its flaws yes, but it still rewards those that get their asses into gear, head down and puts in the fucking effort. I don't believe we are entitled to anything, you gotta work for it and capitalism holds true to that. Oh and this shit about how people are born rich, yeah well you're born far better off then some guy somewhere in Africa so..

That's why I hate communism.


EAT THE RICH!

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11-11-2012, 07:15 AM
RE: The 5 worst things
(11-11-2012 06:56 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  But yeah, probably all semantics.... But that's how things seem to happen around here...
Language is our master and our slave. Which is why I love it Smile

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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