The 5 worst things
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11-11-2012, 01:59 AM
RE: The 5 worst things
What's wrong with communism? Other than it's called utopia for a reason? And that nothing good ever comes out of violence or of forcing a social order on people? I think 1984 and Animal Farm did a pretty good job explaining what's so great about communism.
Hmm, I don't know, sounds like a perfect order. I'm actually considering moving to Cuba or North Korea, just can't decide which.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killin...st_regimes
Oh, and another thing, something I've always been wondering - what is so wrong with nazism? Never could fathom this out.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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11-11-2012, 02:03 AM
RE: The 5 worst things
(11-11-2012 01:59 AM)Vera Wrote:  What's wrong with communism? Other than it's called utopia for a reason? And that nothing good ever comes out of violence or of forcing a social order on people? I think 1984 and Animal Farm did a pretty good job explaining what's so great about communism.
Hmm, I don't know, sounds like a perfect order. I'm actually considering moving to Cuba or North Korea, just can't decide which.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killin...st_regimes
Oh, and another thing, something I've always been wondering - what is so wrong with nazism? Never could fathom this out.
I gather it is the in practice (inevitably corrupted) form, not the theory that you disagree with?

A single action is worth more than the words it takes to describe it.
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11-11-2012, 02:50 AM
RE: The 5 worst things
(10-11-2012 08:28 PM)DLJ Wrote:  I can't say Religion because I don't think we would have got this far without it. Alternative ways to bond groups together would have been preferable but that's not how we evolved so it is what it is.
And why do we need anything other than the fact that we are all human beings, inhabiting the same planet, to hold us together? Religion may have served some such purpose, but it's been centuries and centuries since it's become much more about dividing people, than uniting them. Among other atrocities.


(11-11-2012 02:03 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  I gather it is the in practice (inevitably corrupted) form, not the theory that you disagree with?
Yeah, but the same can be said about nazism (at least if you asked a German around that time), or religion. A lot of people go into it with good intentions and think the ideas behind it are good. But it's ultimately all about power, not creating an earthly paradise.

Which is why I do believe revolutions do not work, people and societies need to evolve, through education, knowledge and laying an emphasis on the right things (respect, understanding, compassion, what have you) and not by a bunch of (mostly power-hungry) people forcing some far-fetched idea that they think is what the masses need.

I do believe the future of humanity lies (or should lie) in cooperation, not competition (to put it extremely simply), but communism isn't the way. I don't think it even needs a name - as I said, I believe it's us, people who need to change first and then we'll change the social order. Not the other way around.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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11-11-2012, 03:16 AM
RE: The 5 worst things
(11-11-2012 02:03 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(11-11-2012 01:59 AM)Vera Wrote:  What's wrong with communism? Other than it's called utopia for a reason? And that nothing good ever comes out of violence or of forcing a social order on people? I think 1984 and Animal Farm did a pretty good job explaining what's so great about communism.
Hmm, I don't know, sounds like a perfect order. I'm actually considering moving to Cuba or North Korea, just can't decide which.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killin...st_regimes
Oh, and another thing, something I've always been wondering - what is so wrong with nazism? Never could fathom this out.
I gather it is the in practice (inevitably corrupted) form, not the theory that you disagree with?

It's both.
Vera sums up perfectly why the practice of communism should be condemned.
I consider the theory to be an insult against humanity because it requires the submission of the individual's free will to the dictates of the system/party/state.

I recognise that in all systems there is some limit to free will and individual choice (other than complete anarchy, but then by definition that's not a system), however in communism the renunciation of free will is a pre-requisite. That's why I put it in 1st place.
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11-11-2012, 03:19 AM (This post was last modified: 11-11-2012 03:27 AM by DLJ.)
RE: The 5 worst things
Vera,
Regarding religion... you know you are preaching to the converted, right?

Regarding Communism, I think that a slow evolutionary (not revolutionary) crawl towards a world state system based on empathy and reciprocity is needed for the survival of the species (all of them).
If the definition of communism includes Revolution as a necessity well, ok, I differ with Marx on that.
I operate, at home, a form of Doi Moi (almost inevitable, I guess, considering the other participants are all Vietnamese). It works pretty well. Each according to their ability and each according to their need.

Did you see the stuff posted elsewhere ... Jonathan Haidt's stuff on morality?
His closing comment on one of the vids was what he would like to see eradicated in the next ten years: demonization and corruption.

Animal Farm would have been a very different story without those two totalitarian (not communist) themes.

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11-11-2012, 03:26 AM
RE: The 5 worst things
(11-11-2012 03:16 AM)Idlecuriosity Wrote:  ... however in communism the renunciation of free will is a pre-requisite.

No such thing as free-will.
I assume you mean "personal choice".

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11-11-2012, 03:33 AM
RE: The 5 worst things
(11-11-2012 02:50 AM)Vera Wrote:  
(11-11-2012 02:03 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  I gather it is the in practice (inevitably corrupted) form, not the theory that you disagree with?
Yeah, but the same can be said about nazism (at least if you asked a German around that time), or religion. A lot of people go into it with good intentions and think the ideas behind it are good. But it's ultimately all about power, not creating an earthly paradise.

Which is why I do believe revolutions do not work, people and societies need to evolve, through education, knowledge and laying an emphasis on the right things (respect, understanding, compassion, what have you) and not by a bunch of (mostly power-hungry) people forcing some far-fetched idea that they think is what the masses need.

I do believe the future of humanity lies (or should lie) in cooperation, not competition (to put it extremely simply), but communism isn't the way. I don't think it even needs a name - as I said, I believe it's us, people who need to change first and then we'll change the social order. Not the other way around.

While I disagree with your points (especially in regards to Nazism), I think I see where you are coming from.

However I would argue that every so often a revolution is necessary in order to insure that what is considered best for the society (at least for a short time) is acted upon when the general society has little to no say regarding how things work in the government, or for clarity sake, when the people consider the Heads of State are abusing their power and have no democratic way of removing them.

Also, while the survival of humanity, and the nation-states it segregates itself with, is based on cooperation, a certain level of competition is necessary to ensure that the ideals and bases of a time do not stagnate, and thus ensuring change within.

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11-11-2012, 04:36 AM
RE: The 5 worst things
(11-11-2012 03:19 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Vera,

Regarding religion... you know you are preaching to the converted, right?



Regarding Communism, I think that a slow evolutionary (not revolutionary) crawl towards a world state system based on empathy and reciprocity is needed for the survival of the species (all of them).

If the definition of communism includes Revolution as a necessity well, ok, I differ with Marx on that.

I operate, at home, a form of Doi Moi (almost inevitable, I guess, considering the other participants are all Vietnamese). It works pretty well. Each according to their ability and each according to their need.



Did you see the stuff posted elsewhere ... Jonathan Haidt's stuff on morality?

His closing comment on one of the vids was what he would like to see eradicated in the next ten years: demonization and corruption.



Animal Farm would have been a very different story without those two totalitarian (not communist) themes.
Hey, I resent the implication that I was preaching. I ain't no preacher, never was and never will be. We were just having a discussion of ideas Yes
Okay, now that that's out of the way, I believe we are thinking more or less about the same thing, it's just that I refuse to call it communism (and not just because I hate labels, regimes, organised schools of thought, basically, anything restraining that tries to do the thinking and moral choosing for you with a set of rules). Back when most people lived in small villages, the community would take care of its weakest members (mentally retarded people, orphans, its poorest members, etc.). That was not communism, it was basic human nature and decency, and our social nature at work. Of course, then our 'villages', so to speak, got much bigger and it became much more difficult to have a community of this type. Hopefully, that's what will happen some time in the future. And the road there is through evolution. And education.

Also, much as it pains me, greed is a very strong factor in all of this. It's innate to humans and extremely difficult to get rid of. Speaking of that ability and need thing, during the communist regime, a guy here bought all the bread of one bakery and said everyone can have as much as they needed, for free. Communism in action, you know - everyone would only take as much as they needed. Well, guess what - people starting taking heaps and heaps of bread and the bakery ran out of it in about 15 minutes (needless to say, the guy got sent to prison).
Quote:While I disagree with your points (especially in regards to Nazism), I think I see where you are coming from.
What exactly about my point about nazism don't you agree with? That it didn't seem good to an oppressed and heavily-punished German people after the idiocy of the WWI treaties, that were bound to lead to something like this? And no, I'm not saying it's right.


I really don't want to play the age card, but when I was your age, I, too, thought that revolutions were sometimes needed. I don't anymore. I'm not talking rebelling against oppression, though.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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11-11-2012, 05:22 AM
RE: The 5 worst things
(11-11-2012 04:36 AM)Vera Wrote:  
Quote:While I disagree with your points (especially in regards to Nazism), I think I see where you are coming from.
What exactly about my point about nazism don't you agree with? That it didn't seem good to an oppressed and heavily-punished German people after the idiocy of the WWI treaties, that were bound to lead to something like this? And no, I'm not saying it's right.


I really don't want to play the age card, but when I was your age, I, too, thought that revolutions were sometimes needed. I don't anymore. I'm not talking rebelling against oppression, though.

(11-11-2012 02:50 AM)Vera Wrote:  
(11-11-2012 02:03 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  I gather it is the in practice (inevitably corrupted) form, not the theory that you disagree with?
Yeah, but the same can be said about nazism (at least if you asked a German around that time), or religion. A lot of people go into it with good intentions and think the ideas behind it are good. But it's ultimately all about power, not creating an earthly paradise.

I take issue with the statement because I do not feel an accurate comparison can be drawn between the ideals of the two, highly opposed systems (given that during the time of Nazism, Hitler destroyed the much hated and rival Communist Movement to ensure his our success.) The theories between two hold greatly different viewpoints and reasoning, effectively standing in contrast of one another.

In practice however the two movements do hold a startling trend of similarities.

(Also, bringing the Germans of that time period I feel does not help the case as the nation effectively split between the two ideals until the communist movement was abolished by Hitler, considering the colossal failure that was the Weimar Republic, the people did not seem to have much faith in democratic solutions to the problems and thus sought the two extremes.)

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11-11-2012, 05:30 AM
RE: The 5 worst things
(11-11-2012 04:36 AM)Vera Wrote:  
(11-11-2012 03:19 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Vera,

Regarding religion... you know you are preaching to the converted, right?



Regarding Communism, I think that a slow evolutionary (not revolutionary) crawl towards a world state system based on empathy and reciprocity is needed for the survival of the species (all of them).

If the definition of communism includes Revolution as a necessity well, ok, I differ with Marx on that.

I operate, at home, a form of Doi Moi (almost inevitable, I guess, considering the other participants are all Vietnamese). It works pretty well. Each according to their ability and each according to their need.



Did you see the stuff posted elsewhere ... Jonathan Haidt's stuff on morality?

His closing comment on one of the vids was what he would like to see eradicated in the next ten years: demonization and corruption.



Animal Farm would have been a very different story without those two totalitarian (not communist) themes.
Hey, I resent the implication that I was preaching. I ain't no preacher, never was and never will be. We were just having a discussion of ideas Yes
Okay, now that that's out of the way, I believe we are thinking more or less about the same thing, it's just that I refuse to call it communism (and not just because I hate labels, regimes, organised schools of thought, basically, anything restraining that tries to do the thinking and moral choosing for you with a set of rules). Back when most people lived in small villages, the community would take care of its weakest members (mentally retarded people, orphans, its poorest members, etc.). That was not communism, it was basic human nature and decency, and our social nature at work. Of course, then our 'villages', so to speak, got much bigger and it became much more difficult to have a community of this type. Hopefully, that's what will happen some time in the future. And the road there is through evolution. And education.

Also, much as it pains me, greed is a very strong factor in all of this. It's innate to humans and extremely difficult to get rid of. Speaking of that ability and need thing, during the communist regime, a guy here bought all the bread of one bakery and said everyone can have as much as they needed, for free. Communism in action, you know - everyone would only take as much as they needed. Well, guess what - people starting taking heaps and heaps of bread and the bakery ran out of it in about 15 minutes (needless to say, the guy got sent to prison).
Quote:While I disagree with your points (especially in regards to Nazism), I think I see where you are coming from.
What exactly about my point about nazism don't you agree with? That it didn't seem good to an oppressed and heavily-punished German people after the idiocy of the WWI treaties, that were bound to lead to something like this? And no, I'm not saying it's right.


I really don't want to play the age card, but when I was your age, I, too, thought that revolutions were sometimes needed. I don't anymore. I'm not talking rebelling against oppression, though.
Vera, you probably know this, but there is an idiom in the some places, "preaching to the choir" .. it doesn't really mean YOU are "preaching"... just that "what you said" we all, already agree on. I'm sure that's what was meant, not that YOU are "preaching".

There are many forms of "communism". The Kibbutzes in Israel can't be said to be awful. They freely joined, and one can leave if they want. The "communism" of the religious communities, for example of monastics, are not evil. Maybe the particular version of state sponsored Marxist Communism that was practiced in certain countries was a failure, but the term as used here needs further definition.

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Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things" (KJV)

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