The 9/11 "mosque"
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04-09-2010, 09:07 AM
RE: The 9/11 "mosque"
Quote:Yes, that's exactly my point - they have the right to build this project, but if their intentions are to heal the conflict, the proposed "mosque" project just isn't going to accomplish that. If their actual intentions are as some have stated, they should spend their time and money elsewhere.

So, if your goal is to promote peace and heal conflict you should give it up because of people who don't want peace or to heal conflict? That makes no sense to me.

I have no idea what the real motivations are behind this mosque and no answer would surprise me. But, as a general concept, the idea that a minority can be pushed around because a majority objects to them is, to me, absolutely appalling. Whether or not they are going to be initially successful in their goal due to the political rantings of the Sarah Palin's of the world is completely and utterly besides the point. If anything, all that does is further my resolve that their rights not be infringed.

As for the specifics of your point, it assumes that Glen Beck, Sarah Palin and Fox News and their collective 10 IQ points are representative of a majority of thinking people in the US. I don't concede that point at all.

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04-09-2010, 11:37 AM
 
RE: The 9/11 "mosque"
The outrage against this mosque is being used as a recruiting tool for extremist Islamic organizations as we speak. The right wing's stupid "patriotism" is doing nothing more than fueling the established notion that the United States is anti-Islamic.

Let the mosque be built, or the terrorists win, so to speak

(04-09-2010 09:07 AM)BnW Wrote:  As for the specifics of your point, it assumes that Glen Beck, Sarah Palin and Fox News and their collective 10 IQ points are representative of a majority of thinking people in the US. I don't concede that point at all.

You give the American people too much credit. The majority of people in this country are just plain stupid. Or at least the louder they are, the stupider they get.
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04-09-2010, 11:43 AM
RE: The 9/11 "mosque"
What can I say- I am not surprised. The big question is- does it matter? the mosque, as I understood, is still permited to being build.
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04-09-2010, 12:58 PM
RE: The 9/11 "mosque"
I see no issue. Is it offensive? I personally don't think so. I think it's an unjust connection from extremist Muslims to Islam as a whole. I've stopped looking at is as "This religion/philosophy has caused massive damage to out world". Humans have a tendency to proselytize whatever their ideals may be. There are people who can respect others views, and those that must convert others. I don't see Islam behind the 9/11 attacks, not at the core of it anyway. It's just human nature gone wrong.

That being said, does it even matter if it is offensive? Everyone does and say offensive things all the time. My Governor, Brewer, has recently had a complete brain fart on live television. Everyone is making fun of it. A lot of what they say are considered offensive. Jon Stewart says some offensive things, South Park, Family Guy. That's the first amendment, no one is forced to be respectful of anything. The Mosque breaks no laws, and it's perfectly legal to build it.

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04-09-2010, 02:54 PM
 
RE: The 9/11 "mosque"
(04-09-2010 09:07 AM)BnW Wrote:  
Quote:Yes, that's exactly my point - they have the right to build this project, but if their intentions are to heal the conflict, the proposed "mosque" project just isn't going to accomplish that. If their actual intentions are as some have stated, they should spend their time and money elsewhere.

So, if your goal is to promote peace and heal conflict you should give it up because of people who don't want peace or to heal conflict? That makes no sense to me.

If that had been my point, you might have a case. My point is ... whatever their intentions might have been, the accomplishment of those intentions by that project have effectively been sabotaged in the brouhaha that arose. Do you honestly believe that building this project is going to heal relations between muslims and the christian majority? I'm not saying those seeking to heal those relations should give up, but rather they should direct their time and resources to some other project.

(04-09-2010 09:07 AM)BnW Wrote:  I have no idea what the real motivations are behind this mosque and no answer would surprise me. But, as a general concept, the idea that a minority can be pushed around because a majority objects to them is, to me, absolutely appalling. Whether or not they are going to be initially successful in their goal due to the political rantings of the Sarah Palin's of the world is completely and utterly besides the point. If anything, all that does is further my resolve that their rights not be infringed.

I agree fully that they have the right to do this, and no one should take that away. Personally, I think allowing the project to go ahead would be a statement by Americans that we're not going to be swayed by the likes of Beck and Palin into a state of fear. But I now believe that the issue has gotten away from everyone, such than many otherwise reasonable people now have doubts about the intentions of all muslims. Do I have incontrovertible proof of that? No. I wish there was some sort of poll that would show what Americans actually think. In any case, though, there are other ways to build those bridges, if that's indeed what they want to do.

(04-09-2010 09:07 AM)BnW Wrote:  As for the specifics of your point, it assumes that Glen Beck, Sarah Palin and Fox News and their collective 10 IQ points are representative of a majority of thinking people in the US. I don't concede that point at all.
I suspect, but don't know for sure, of course, that if you conducted a national plebiscite on whether or not the project should go ahead, it likely would lose, pretty convincingly. I'm not assuming anything, nor am I asking you to concede anything, and don't like that bunch any more than you do, but it looks to me as if they've succeeded in making this a divisive issue, and since the nation as a whole has been on a pretty steady tilt toward the religious right, I'm afraid these self-proclaimed 'pundits' have been far more effective than any voices of reason. It isn't something that makes me happy, but the liberals have been notoriously ineffective since the days of Bill Clinton (before the dustup regarding his pecadillos) ...
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04-09-2010, 03:09 PM
 
RE: The 9/11 "mosque"
I think that politically speaking, President Obama did more harm than good by coming out for this project. With his approval ratings as low as they are, and the majority of "right wingers" against him, all he did was guarantee controversy when he spoke about it.

I agree with the overall message he had, and most of the specifics, but I think that his campaign right now is akin to a sinking ship, and he latched onto another sinking ship in an effort to revive both.

Now with the number of people that believe he is a Muslim and the supposed "ties to Hamas" that the mosque has...

I don't think that there is any saving this project.

And I believe that some fundamentalist will try to blow it up Oklahoma style if it does still get built.
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05-09-2010, 10:05 AM
RE: The 9/11 "mosque"
Quote:If that had been my point, you might have a case. My point is ... whatever their intentions might have been, the accomplishment of those intentions by that project have effectively been sabotaged in the brouhaha that arose. Do you honestly believe that building this project is going to heal relations between muslims and the christian majority? I'm not saying those seeking to heal those relations should give up, but rather they should direct their time and resources to some other project.

2buck - I think you're missing the point here. Regardless of what the current environment or the current level of demagoguery is, if their intentions are to promote peace or common understandings then doing so in the face of adversary is exactly the right thing to do.

Consider the US Civil Rights movement. The overwhelming majority of people in the US seemed to favor the status quo, including so-called northern liberal whites. Should Dr. King and others have taken on a less controversial position or waited until the general public was more willing to accept his message? And, when was that time going to come? There were a lot of people for whom the right time for civil equality was "never".

If I were these people and I really was doing this for the reasons they have stated then this would only strengthen my resolve.

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05-09-2010, 02:44 PM
 
RE: The 9/11 "mosque"
I disagree with it in every way, but they have a right to have it there. The First Amendment isn't just for Atheists.
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06-09-2010, 10:23 AM
 
RE: The 9/11 "mosque"
(05-09-2010 10:05 AM)BnW Wrote:  2buck - I think you're missing the point here. Regardless of what the current environment or the current level of demagoguery is, if their intentions are to promote peace or common understandings then doing so in the face of adversary is exactly the right thing to do.
But I think you''re missing my point that the process of how you 'promote peace or common understanding' can be rendered ineffective by antagonizing one side or the other. In this case, the opponents of this project are never going to believe that the goal of the project is peace and common understanding, thanks to the media-based polarization campaign.

(05-09-2010 10:05 AM)BnW Wrote:  Consider the US Civil Rights movement. The overwhelming majority of people in the US seemed to favor the status quo, including so-called northern liberal whites. Should Dr. King and others have taken on a less controversial position or waited until the general public was more willing to accept his message? And, when was that time going to come? There were a lot of people for whom the right time for civil equality was "never".
This is a wonderful example of what I'm driving at. The basic path of nonviolent protest followed by Dr. King (and Ghandi, whom Dr. King admired and emulated) was designed to show the moral bankruptcy of their opposition, which it accomplished in crystalline clarity. The opponents of black civil rights contributed to their own ultimate defeat by their brutal responses to peaceful protesters.

Building this "mosque" is a very different sort of campaign, where going ahead with it is simply going to antagonize their opponents even more. Showing the moral bankruptcy of the opposition would require years of peaceful, nonviolent activities emanating from this project. If a single terrorist is even alleged to be involved in some way with the resulting community center, it would sabotage instantly all the otherwise benign activities of the community center. This project is not likely to be effective at healing the division between muslims and the rest of the US population, irrespective of their right to go ahead with it. The issues here are clouded with doubt [justified or not] in the minds of many Americans about the intentions of muslims in general.
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06-09-2010, 11:18 AM
RE: The 9/11 "mosque"
But not everyone associated with the civil rights movement bought into Dr. King's nonviolent world view, and yet progress was made. And after his murder in 1968 when there was extreme violence still more progress came after. I realize that this is not exactly comparable to the civil rights movement but I think the basic lessons are still the same; that being you don't let bullies dictate your actions or your message.

I'm no fan of either religion in general or Islam in particular but I think there is a much larger principle in play here whether the immediate impact of this mosque is positive or not.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
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