The American military as a system of goverment
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23-08-2012, 02:07 AM
The American military as a system of goverment
So I was thinking today that one of the things that annoy me about civilian life is that there's no rank structure. 21 year old dumbasses with no life experience and no clue what they're talking about land jobs where they are in charge of older, more experienced people. The army usually rewards years in service and combat experience with rank promotions and combat badges, that way when you see a fuzz patch Private E-1, you know better than to expect too much out of him. There are incompetent morons who get promoted, but they usually have enough experience at that point to pretend to know what they're doing. Likewise, civilians who haven't accomplished anything in their self-righteous and spoiled lives using daddy's income would be labeled Privates, so you'd know right away that they're morons. There would be other ways of promotion of course. This way, if some redneck high school flunk-out tries to lecture Richard Dawkins on evolution, Dawkins can pull rank on him and end the conversation.

Anyways, I have derailed. People live with the military way of life every day (...like soldiers in the military) and aren't rioting in the streets for personal liberties or plotting to assassinate the oppressive Sergeant Major running their base. So I wanted to weigh the pros and cons if America reverted to a military regime.

Firstly, the military seems to be different than a police state government. Each base is technically run by the Commander in Chief, but he isn't directly involved with any of the bases. He isn't empowered even though he has all the power, somehow, and this keeps him from becoming corrupt. Checks and balances are kept by the commanders directly in charge of each base, and since soldiers can vote for their president, it's still a democracy.

But let's get to it. The obvious aspect of our new military government is the usage of socialism. We'll wait for all the republicans in the room to stop screaming "Communist!" and gnashing their teeth. Alright, now that that's over, let's look at what is provided for the citizens. Food is free in government paid mess halls, housing is provided for those that can't afford to live on their own, health and dental is provided free of charge, and a monthly stipulation is paid out for clothing. Well that all sounds terrifying.

Punishment would go from being fired or verbally scolded to forced exercise. Employers can now "drop" their employees and make them do pushups. This would seriously raise the discipline of our citizens. This along with the mandatory exercise every morning and fitness tests would ensure that the obesity problem in this country all but disappears.

As far as religion goes, the army maintains the separation of church and state pretty well. There are places of worship scattered around base but no one will ever make you pray or claim this is a "Christian military/country." So all this "Christian President" and "Mormon President" and focus on each candidates religion would diminished. When the entire country becomes the state, separation of church and state all but eradicates the religion part.

The biggest flaw I can see is the disregard for individualism. The military advocates collectivism, because sheep are easier to control as a herd, not a bunch of individual sheep with their own ideas and aspirations. And so the communist aspect would keep any "dreamers" from creating great works of art and such. But there would be more of a sense of community. Soldiers in the military often get assigned to do menial tasks, not expecting any compensation or reward. They just do them because of their sense of duty. And so we would truly be the "United States" of America, doing jobs that need to be done because they need to be done. Occasionally giving up freedoms for the good of the collective, knowing that tomorrow someone else will give up their daily freedom for you.

Rank will have to be restructured, promoting brains, experience, and competence. This would enforce a sort of elitism, where the best of the best lead the rest. I can live with this. I don't mind taking orders, if I know the person has earned their right to give those orders.

Well I've rambled on long enough. Thoughts? Shut up and go to sleep? You got it!

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23-08-2012, 03:19 AM
RE: The American military as a system of goverment
They're screaming communism because that is exactly what it is.
And what's the problem with communism?

Quote:The biggest flaw I can see is the disregard for individualism. The military advocates collectivism, because sheep are easier to control as a herd, not a bunch of individual sheep with their own ideas and aspirations. And so the communist aspect would keep any "dreamers" from creating great works of art and such.

You said it yourself.
You sort of shrug this off in your post but I think you are greatly undervaluing individualism.
This in itself is a deal breaking for me, this is what makes me against communism.

But like others have said in other posts extremes either way are not ideal, they do not please everyone.
You need that mix. So you need those socialist reforms, that free healthcare and free dental care (we don't have free dental care and that shit is EXPENSIVE!, lucky I have good teeth) etc... BUT you also need that system that will allow those 'dreamers', as you put it, to shine and flourish.
This is why I am socially left but politically right. Social reform, but capitalist workplace, because you are looked after but have then the rest is up to you and about what you put in.

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23-08-2012, 05:12 AM
RE: The American military as a system of goverment
... Robert Heinlein - in Starship Troopers - describes a military governed utopia. You should read it BC, I think it'd be right up your alley.

I'm all for competent people being in charge. Not a big fan of military though.
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23-08-2012, 06:54 AM
RE: The American military as a system of goverment
As one who has lived under the thumb of the military for his entire life, I have to say that this is an extremely uneducated opinion, Filox.

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23-08-2012, 07:54 AM
RE: The American military as a system of goverment
(23-08-2012 06:54 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  As one who has lived under the thumb of the military for his entire life, I have to say that this is an extremely uneducated opinion, Filox.

Poor Filox... getting the blame for everything.
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23-08-2012, 12:59 PM (This post was last modified: 23-08-2012 01:05 PM by TrainWreck.)
RE: The American military as a system of goverment
(23-08-2012 02:07 AM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  Food is free in government paid mess halls, housing is provided for those that can't afford to live on their own, health and dental is provided free of charge, and a monthly stipulation is paid out for clothing. Well that all sounds terrifying.

Punishment would go from being fired or verbally scolded to forced exercise. Employers can now "drop" their employees and make them do pushups. This would seriously raise the discipline of our citizens. This along with the mandatory exercise every morning and fitness tests would ensure that the obesity problem in this country all but disappears.

The biggest flaw I can see is the disregard for individualism.
No - the biggest flaw is your failure to understand that the food, shelter, and healthcare, is not free, nor is it the result of magic.
The next problem is you expect people to work - why work if the food, shelter, and healthcare, is free?

By the way - does Obama have the experience necessary for the Presidency? Do we have technical qualifications for the elected offices?

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23-08-2012, 01:35 PM
RE: The American military as a system of goverment
(23-08-2012 03:19 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  They're screaming communism because that is exactly what it is.
And what's the problem with communism?

You said it yourself.
You sort of shrug this off in your post but I think you are greatly undervaluing individualism.
This in itself is a deal breaking for me, this is what makes me against communism.

But like others have said in other posts extremes either way are not ideal, they do not please everyone.
You need that mix. So you need those socialist reforms, that free healthcare and free dental care (we don't have free dental care and that shit is EXPENSIVE!, lucky I have good teeth) etc... BUT you also need that system that will allow those 'dreamers', as you put it, to shine and flourish.
This is why I am socially left but politically right. Social reform, but capitalist workplace, because you are looked after but have then the rest is up to you and about what you put in.

I'm a Libertarian. So I'm not advocating communism or dismissing individualism. I'm just pointing out that the military seems to have found a form of socialism that works, due to its democratic aspects.


(23-08-2012 06:54 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  As one who has lived under the thumb of the military for his entire life, I have to say that this is an extremely uneducated opinion, Filox.

Like everyone else, I'm wondering how Filox came into this...


(23-08-2012 12:59 PM)TrainWreck Wrote:  No - the biggest flaw is your failure to understand that the food, shelter, and healthcare, is not free, nor is it the result of magic.
The next problem is you expect people to work - why work if the food, shelter, and healthcare, is free?

By the way - does Obama have the experience necessary for the Presidency? Do we have technical qualifications for the elected offices?

The food, shelter, and healthcare would come from the same place it comes from now; taxes. The economy would still exist as it is now, only under military rule.

I suppose people would work for the same reason they work when they don't want to in the military... because they don't want to get physically punished or even arrested for failing to follow an order. Plus those who refuse to help the rest of us out by working in the base/town would be ostracized by the community and frowned upon as "shitbags." Public opinion is very powerful.

And rank wouldn't play into presidential elections, just like it doesn't in our military bases today. Soldiers don't vote for 5 star generals to run things, they vote based on the same criteria as everyone else; education, social appeal, confidence, and handsomeness (Americans base their votes on the dumbest things).

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

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23-08-2012, 08:49 PM
RE: The American military as a system of goverment
Like any other types of ruling, the problem will always be corruption. We will never be rid of that.
There are good and bad in both democratic and communist societies. Finding a good balance that works would be awesome but that's unlikely to happen.

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24-08-2012, 01:19 AM
RE: The American military as a system of goverment
Why are non-Americans so eager to "fix" our form of government? We are far from perfect and have plenty of our own issues but despite what it looks like to others, it is working and the majority of the population is pretty much happy. Sure the left bitches about the right when they are in power and visa versa, but at the end of the day our government is picked by us, and I would rather have that than the alternative.

With that said. I have often thought about how running a civilian company like the military would work and on wow levels I think it may work well. I do not think that it would work well as a form of government though. We have seen too many example of how fucked up shit can get when the one that controls all the weapons controls everything else. I also think that many of you have the wrong impression of how the military works now, or at least and outdated one. The military is not as totalitarian as many of you think. When the bullets are flying it is true that there is one person I absolute charge but when I'm the training mode, every single person involved has input and are encouraged to speak up. There are still the "my way or the highway" type leaders in th military, but they are pretty rare these days. Great leaders get as much input from the troops as possible when training and going through battles drills so that when the shit hits the fan everyone knows what to do and does it with out much need for direction.
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24-08-2012, 02:19 AM
RE: The American military as a system of goverment
OH NO! you don't want the military to rule a country. The problem with the military discipline is that it undermines freedom, and that makes people forget how to exercise it, rendering them unable to try to modify a bad situation. And you know eventually something bad will happen, because the commanders aren't perfect or just because that's the way the world works, and it's downhill from there, a few will try to make things change, but the discipline would be enforced, generating a reaction in some sectors, which would lead to repression, that would cause fear among the population and in no time you'll have state terrorism on the rise... Eventually the military will fall, by a revolution or by their own incompetence, and all you'll have left is an fearful, uneducated society, unable to make a decision and with rigid mindsets...

Discipline and efficiency are overrated, creativity comes from chaos, and creativity is the raw material from which solutions are invented Big Grin

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