The Ark of noah could be a religious fail.
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25-06-2016, 12:33 PM
RE: The Ark of noah could be a religious fail.
(24-06-2016 11:24 PM)rosechaos Wrote:  Well we all know about that story somehow, it was mentioned in hebrew bible (torah) , bible and Quran.

I've read about that topic in many scientific websites and found out that it's a myth. Gilgamesh is an epic poem from ancient Mesopotamia (Babylons specifically.)
but christians and muslims i've talked to before still deny the fact that the story is damn borrowed, they believe that the flood occurred circa 2349 BCE, and that the account in Genesis was written by Moses circa 1450 BCE, shortly before his death. 5,8 Thus, the Babylonian text must be a corrupted version based on a Paganized adaptation of the true story in Genesis. Alternatively, it might be an independent attempt at describing the world-wide flood. Gasp

The flood story from "The Epic of Galgamesh" 1,8 and the Hebrew story in Genesis are very similar with almost 20 major points in common. Their texts are obviously linked in some way. Either:

In both the Genesis and Gilgamesh stories:

bullet The Genesis story describes how mankind had become obnoxious to God; they were hopelessly sinful and wicked. In the Babylonian story, they were too numerous and noisy.

bullet The gods (or God) decided to send a worldwide flood. This would have drowned all men, women, children, babies and infants, as well as eliminate all of the land animals and birds.

bullet God (or one of the gods) knew of one righteous man, Ut-Napishtim or Noah.

bullet One of the gods (or God) ordered the hero to build a multi-story wooden ark (called a chest or box in the original Hebrew).

bullet The ark would be sealed with pitch.

bullet The ark would have many internal compartments

bullet It would have a single door

bullet It would have at least one window.

bullet The ark was built and loaded with the hero, a few other humans, and samples from all species of other land animals.

bullet A great rain covered the land with water.

bullet The mountains were submerged under water.

bullet The ark landed on a mountain in the Middle East.

bullet The hero sent out birds at regular intervals to find if any dry land was in the vicinity.

bullet The first two birds returned to the ark. The third bird apparently found dry land because it did not return.

bullet The hero and his family left the ark, ritually killed an animal, offered it as a sacrifice.

bullet God (or the gods in the Epic of Gilgamesh) smelled the roasted meat of the sacrifice.

bullet The hero was blessed.

bullet The Babylonian gods seemed genuinely sorry for the genocide that they had created. The God of Noah appears to have regretted his actions as well, because he promised never to do it again.

The were a number of details in which the two stories differed:

bullet Noah received his instructions directly from Yahweh; Ut-Napishtim received them indirectly during a dream.

bullet Noah's ark was 3 stories high and rectangular in shape. Two estimated dimensions are 547 x 91 ft. and 450 x 75 ft. The Babylonian ark was 6 stories high and square.

bullet Ut-Napishtim invited additional people on board: a pilot and some skilled workmen.

bullet Noah's ark landed on Mt. Ararat; Ut-Napishtim's at on Mt. Nisir; these locations are both in the Middle East, and are located few hundred miles apart.

bullet In the Bible, some of the water emerged from beneath the oceans. The rains from above lasted for 40 days and nights. A 40 day interval often symbolized a period of judgment in the Hebrew Scriptures. 2 In the Babylonian account, the water came only in the form of rain, and lasted only 6 days.

bullet Noah released a raven once and a dove twice; Ut-Napishtim released three birds: a dove, swallow and raven.

so do you think that bullet Genesis was copied from an earlier Babylonian story, or
bullet The Galgamesh myth was copied from an earlier Hebrew story in Genesis, or
bullet Both were copied from a common source that predates them both ?

anyone had googled or read about this before? Consider

Oh yeah, every major myth in Genesis is derived from the much earlier myths of Babylon and/or Sumeria, the Tower of Babel and Genesis itself, though the Hebrews altered their version of the creation myth quite a bit, the Babylonian myth of creation from chaos (the deep) remains intact in the Genesis myth as well as the serpent taking immortality from Gilgamesh.

I believe there are even certain phrases repeated almost word-for-word in the Noahtic flood myth that were in the Epic of Gilgamesh. I need to research that some time.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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25-06-2016, 02:46 PM
RE: The Ark of noah could be a religious fail.
(25-06-2016 09:18 AM)Commonsensei Wrote:  I made a thread with a number of other flood stories.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...od-Stories


Well thank you ! but most of them were written after the hebrew, So apologists will claim that other nations wrote what really happened to earth but in their different ways and thoughts.

We can only tell from gilgamish story so far, but yea flood stories are very common because floods happen anyway.
i've searched for trusted articles that proves world's flood didn't happen and found nothing but christian sites.
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25-06-2016, 02:58 PM
RE: The Ark of noah could be a religious fail.
(25-06-2016 12:33 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(24-06-2016 11:24 PM)rosechaos Wrote:  Well we all know about that story somehow, it was mentioned in hebrew bible (torah) , bible and Quran.

I've read about that topic in many scientific websites and found out that it's a myth. Gilgamesh is an epic poem from ancient Mesopotamia (Babylons specifically.)
but christians and muslims i've talked to before still deny the fact that the story is damn borrowed, they believe that the flood occurred circa 2349 BCE, and that the account in Genesis was written by Moses circa 1450 BCE, shortly before his death. 5,8 Thus, the Babylonian text must be a corrupted version based on a Paganized adaptation of the true story in Genesis. Alternatively, it might be an independent attempt at describing the world-wide flood. Gasp

The flood story from "The Epic of Galgamesh" 1,8 and the Hebrew story in Genesis are very similar with almost 20 major points in common. Their texts are obviously linked in some way. Either:

In both the Genesis and Gilgamesh stories:

bullet The Genesis story describes how mankind had become obnoxious to God; they were hopelessly sinful and wicked. In the Babylonian story, they were too numerous and noisy.

bullet The gods (or God) decided to send a worldwide flood. This would have drowned all men, women, children, babies and infants, as well as eliminate all of the land animals and birds.

bullet God (or one of the gods) knew of one righteous man, Ut-Napishtim or Noah.

bullet One of the gods (or God) ordered the hero to build a multi-story wooden ark (called a chest or box in the original Hebrew).

bullet The ark would be sealed with pitch.

bullet The ark would have many internal compartments

bullet It would have a single door

bullet It would have at least one window.

bullet The ark was built and loaded with the hero, a few other humans, and samples from all species of other land animals.

bullet A great rain covered the land with water.

bullet The mountains were submerged under water.

bullet The ark landed on a mountain in the Middle East.

bullet The hero sent out birds at regular intervals to find if any dry land was in the vicinity.

bullet The first two birds returned to the ark. The third bird apparently found dry land because it did not return.

bullet The hero and his family left the ark, ritually killed an animal, offered it as a sacrifice.

bullet God (or the gods in the Epic of Gilgamesh) smelled the roasted meat of the sacrifice.

bullet The hero was blessed.

bullet The Babylonian gods seemed genuinely sorry for the genocide that they had created. The God of Noah appears to have regretted his actions as well, because he promised never to do it again.

The were a number of details in which the two stories differed:

bullet Noah received his instructions directly from Yahweh; Ut-Napishtim received them indirectly during a dream.

bullet Noah's ark was 3 stories high and rectangular in shape. Two estimated dimensions are 547 x 91 ft. and 450 x 75 ft. The Babylonian ark was 6 stories high and square.

bullet Ut-Napishtim invited additional people on board: a pilot and some skilled workmen.

bullet Noah's ark landed on Mt. Ararat; Ut-Napishtim's at on Mt. Nisir; these locations are both in the Middle East, and are located few hundred miles apart.

bullet In the Bible, some of the water emerged from beneath the oceans. The rains from above lasted for 40 days and nights. A 40 day interval often symbolized a period of judgment in the Hebrew Scriptures. 2 In the Babylonian account, the water came only in the form of rain, and lasted only 6 days.

bullet Noah released a raven once and a dove twice; Ut-Napishtim released three birds: a dove, swallow and raven.

so do you think that bullet Genesis was copied from an earlier Babylonian story, or
bullet The Galgamesh myth was copied from an earlier Hebrew story in Genesis, or
bullet Both were copied from a common source that predates them both ?

anyone had googled or read about this before? Consider

Oh yeah, every major myth in Genesis is derived from the much earlier myths of Babylon and/or Sumeria, the Tower of Babel and Genesis itself, though the Hebrews altered their version of the creation myth quite a bit, the Babylonian myth of creation from chaos (the deep) remains intact in the Genesis myth as well as the serpent taking immortality from Gilgamesh.

I believe there are even certain phrases repeated almost word-for-word in the Noahtic flood myth that were in the Epic of Gilgamesh. I need to research that some time.

Yup epic of gilgamesh were a poem as i read but some apologists think that they were inspired from real stories happened long time ago when god send his prophets though the differences in details and names.
But we can tell it's kinda impossible since bill nye explained it all

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F4OhXQTMOEc
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25-06-2016, 03:01 PM
RE: The Ark of noah could be a religious fail.
(25-06-2016 09:20 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  Science has debunked the worldwide flood claim. Flood myths exist in other religions as well, they have different details, but all stem from the fact that humans mistook massive storms that caused river and see levels to rise as being the entirety of the planet.

But morally the biblical flood myth is a vile story. It is an act of revenge and an act of genocide. Not to mention after all that, one family is left according to the story, and without incest believers have no way to explain how the world was repopulated.

Can you bring me the articles that did debunked this story ?
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25-06-2016, 03:03 PM
RE: The Ark of noah could be a religious fail.
Story not theory lol
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25-06-2016, 03:16 PM
RE: The Ark of noah could be a religious fail.
(25-06-2016 02:46 PM)rosechaos Wrote:  
(25-06-2016 09:18 AM)Commonsensei Wrote:  I made a thread with a number of other flood stories.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...od-Stories


Well thank you ! but most of them were written after the hebrew, So apologists will claim that other nations wrote what really happened to earth but in their different ways and thoughts.

We can only tell from gilgamish story so far, but yea flood stories are very common because floods happen anyway.
i've searched for trusted articles that proves world's flood didn't happen and found nothing but christian sites.

The Eridu Genesis or Sumerian Creation Myth which includes a flood myth was written around 1600 BC or the 16th century BC. Genesis is believed to be written around the 8th century BC. Gotta remember in BC dates work backwards, the smaller year number, the later the date.

"If you keep trying to better yourself that's enough for me. We don't decide which hand we are dealt in life, but we make the decision to play it or fold it" - Nishi Karano Kaze
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25-06-2016, 03:37 PM
RE: The Ark of noah could be a religious fail.
(25-06-2016 03:16 PM)JDog554 Wrote:  
(25-06-2016 02:46 PM)rosechaos Wrote:  Well thank you ! but most of them were written after the hebrew, So apologists will claim that other nations wrote what really happened to earth but in their different ways and thoughts.

We can only tell from gilgamish story so far, but yea flood stories are very common because floods happen anyway.
i've searched for trusted articles that proves world's flood didn't happen and found nothing but christian sites.

The Eridu Genesis or Sumerian Creation Myth which includes a flood myth was written around 1600 BC or the 16th century BC. Genesis is believed to be written around the 8th century BC. Gotta remember in BC dates work backwards, the smaller year number, the later the date.

I already know but some of articles were about nations were founded after judism thing
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25-06-2016, 03:39 PM
RE: The Ark of noah could be a religious fail.
(25-06-2016 03:37 PM)rosechaos Wrote:  
(25-06-2016 03:16 PM)JDog554 Wrote:  The Eridu Genesis or Sumerian Creation Myth which includes a flood myth was written around 1600 BC or the 16th century BC. Genesis is believed to be written around the 8th century BC. Gotta remember in BC dates work backwards, the smaller year number, the later the date.

I already know but some of articles were about nations were founded after judism thing

Ah, I see what you mean. My apologies.

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25-06-2016, 04:16 PM
RE: The Ark of noah could be a religious fail.
(25-06-2016 03:03 PM)rosechaos Wrote:  Story not theory lol

The flood story is baloney. Here's a link.

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25-06-2016, 05:12 PM
RE: The Ark of noah could be a religious fail.
Egyptian civilization is probably familiar to most of us. Egypt’s dynastic history started with the uniting of Upper and Lower Egypt by King Menes, around 3100 BCE. The Egyptian period known as the “Old Kingdom” lasted from 2800 to 2175 BCE. During this time many of the pyramids were built. There is no record, written or archaeological, for a monster flood destroying and completely interrupting this countries infrastructure or it’s monuments such as the Sphinx, the Step Pyramid, or the Great Pyramids, which were built before ‘The Flood’. Neither were they wiped out.

China has a reasonably accurate history starting around 3000 BCE. According to texts from a Chinese book called “Shu King” and verified by archaeological records, China was undergoing a prosperous period around 2400 to 2200 BCE during the early Yaou Dynasty. They have no record of a cataclysmic flood interrupting their whole civilization and destroying the infrastructure of the country. Neither were they wiped out.

The Indus valley civilization has a well-known history dating back to perhaps 3100 BCE. By 2500 BCE there were two major cities, Mohendaro (or Mohenjo-Daro) and Harrapa, which rivaled Egypt and Mesopotamia in population and technologies. This great Civilization also encompassed maybe 100 smaller cities, towns, and villages, and didn’t fall until about 1500 BCE. They have no record of a worldwide civilization-destroying flood. Neither were they wiped out.

The Minoan civilization was probably as old as Egypt. Based on the Island of Crete, this civilization grew quickly and was highly advanced by 2500 BCE. By the middle of the second millennium it had an alphabet, used bronze tools, had pottery, textiles, advanced architecture, and had established cities around the Islands. It continued to grow and was a center for trade and culture until about the mid-1400′s BCE when it was suddenly destroyed by the violent eruption of the Thera volcano. There has been no evidence unearthed from this civilization that shows a flood destroying their whole infrastructure, at any time in their existence. Neither were they wiped out.

Trees that were completely submerged in salt water would have died, so when we look at trees that are say 10,000 years old, and not only did they live past the "mythical flood' but they show zero evidence of a flood. Can you find trees with flood evidence ? Sure, that shows there was a local flood, not worldwide, submerged flood that killed all life including vegetation. you are familiar with barometric pressure of course so you understand introducing that much magical water into our system would have wrecked it right? There is not enough water on or in the earth to cover the planet under 40 feet above the highest mountain.

The conventional flood story states that the flood waters came from rain that lasted 40 days and 40 night right? Rain appears when the atmosphere can no longer support water in the vapor phase and it becomes saturated. So normally, the atmosphere is on the brink of saturation, and the variations in temperature and pressure caused by weather fronts are capable of altering the threshold at which precipitation will form quite easily. What about the amount of water vapor suspended in air needed for the 4.5 billion cubic kilometers of water needed for the global flood? The water vapor currently in the air is only around 2-3% on average, with a maximum of 4% limited by temperature and pressure.

The change in atmospheric conditions required to support enough vapor for 112 million cubic kilometers of rain per day - about 120,000 times more than the current daily rainfall worldwide - would have rendered the air unbreathable.

Indeed, the atmosphere really couldn't sustain that much water even under the most extreme temperature and pressure conditions the planet can produce. If the conditions were right for that much water to be in the atmosphere, humans and virtually every other animal would have drowned through the simple act of breathing, as well as turning the earth into the equivalent of a pressure cooker with atmospheric pressure at nearly a thousand psi instead of the standard 14.7 or so that we have today.

How do you explain the relative ages of mountains? For example, why weren't the Sierra Nevadas eroded as much as the Appalachians during the Flood?

Why is there no evidence of a flood in ice core series? Ice cores from Greenland have been dated back more than 40,000 years by counting annual layers. [Johnsen et al, 1992,; Alley et al, 1993] A worldwide flood would be expected to leave a layer of sediments, noticeable changes in salinity and oxygen isotope ratios, fractures from buoyancy and thermal stresses, a hiatus in trapped air bubbles, and probably other evidence. Why doesn't such evidence show up?

How are the polar ice caps even possible? Such a mass of water as the Flood would have provided sufficient buoyancy to float the polar caps off their beds and break them up. They wouldn't regrow quickly. In fact, the Greenland ice cap would not regrow under modern (last 10 ky) climatic conditions. The fact that greenland even exists single handedly refutes the flood.

Why did the Flood not leave traces on the sea floors? A year long flood should be recognizable in sea bottom cores by (1) an uncharacteristic amount of terrestrial detritus, (2) different grain size distributions in the sediment, (3) a shift in oxygen isotope ratios (rain has a different isotopic composition from seawater), (4) a massive extinction, and (n) other characters. Why do none of these show up?

Repopulation issue

The global flood story requires that only eight people were left alive in 2349 BCE. This does not allow enough time for humans to repopulate the earth. In 2000 BCE only 350 years after the flood the population of the world was 27 million. To go from a population of eight to a population of 27 million in 350 years would require a population growth rate of 136.07%. That is 133% more than the fastest growing portions of the world today.

The Bible also places the date of construction on the Tower of Babel roughly 100 years after the great flood. Saying a population could go from 6 people (Noah and his wife don't count, they didn't have any more children) to enough people to build the Tower of Babel as it is described in the Bible is absurd. This tower was so great that it threatened God, so it must have been greater that the pyramid of Khufu which took 30,000 people to build. Even a growth rate of 500%, which is absurd beyond all imagination, would only produce about half the required people to even begin to think about such a construction project.


The Ark,

I won’t get into the issue of how pandas, and polar bears, and ants, and anteaters, and sloths etc etc all animals from all over the world from different continents somehow swam/flew/crawled across massive oceans to line up for the ark cruise…or what they ate, or where the poop went, or how they breathed from that tiny window, or how the different species survived from various climates and requiring specific foods. I will dabble into some building issues however;

Noah's Ark was a great rectangular box of gopherwood, or perhaps some combination of other woods colloquially referred to as gopherwood. Its dimensions are given as 137 meters long, 23 meters wide, and 14 meters high. This is very, very big; it would have been the longest wooden ship ever built. These dimensions rank it as one of history's greatest engineering achievements; but they also mark the start of our sea trials, our test of whether or not it's possible for this ship to have ever sailed, or indeed, been built at all.

Would it have been possible to find enough material to build Noah's Ark? When another early supership was built, the Great Michael (completed in Scotland in 1511) it was said to have consumed "all the woods of Fife". Fife was a county in Scotland famous for its shipbuilding. The Great Michael's timber had to be purchased and imported not only from other parts of Scotland, but also from France, the Baltic Sea, and from a large number of cargo ships from Norway. Yet at 73 meters, she was only about half the length of Noah's Ark. Clearly a ship twice the length of the Great Michael, and larger in all other dimensions, would have required many times as much timber. It's never been clearly stated exactly where Noah's Ark is said to have been built, but it would have been somewhere in Mesopotamia, probably along either the Tigris or Euphrates rivers. This area is now Iraq, which has never been known for its abundance of shipbuilding timber.

Whether a wooden ship the size of Noah's Ark could be made seaworthy is in grave doubt. At 137 meters (450 feet), Noah's Ark would be the largest wooden vessel ever confirmed to have been built. In recorded history, some dozen or so wooden ships have been constructed over 90 meters; few have been successful. Even so, these wooden ships had a great advantage over Noah's Ark: their curved hull shapes. Stress loads are distributed much more efficiently over three dimensionally curved surfaces than they are over flat surfaces. But even with this advantage, real-world large wooden ships have had severe problems. The sailing ships the 100 meter Wyoming (sunk in 1924) and 99 meter Santiago (sunk in 1918) were so large that they flexed in the water, opening up seams in the hull and leaking. The 102 meter British warships HMS Orlando and HMS Mersey had such bad structural problems that they were scrapped in 1871 and 1875 after only a few years in service. Most of the largest wooden ships were, like Noah's Ark, unpowered barges. Yet even those built in modern times, such as the 103 meter Pretoria in 1901, required substantial amounts of steel reinforcement; and even then needed steam-powered pumps to fight the constant flex-induced leaking.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid674871

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