The Arminianism vs Calvinism (freewill vs election) Debate and Discussion Thread
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29-01-2013, 03:53 PM
RE: The Arminianism vs Calvinism (freewill vs election) Debate and Discussion Thread
(29-01-2013 03:46 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(29-01-2013 03:38 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Nah, we have plenty of those threads. No need to recreate one.
Why? Because when the ability to question the bible is in play the validity of your (Christian) argument falls apart faster then something that falls apart?

The beauty of science is that the whole thing is up for discussion. When debating science there are no restrictions on what can and cannot be brought up.
Because that's not what we're talking about.

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29-01-2013, 03:55 PM
RE: The Arminianism vs Calvinism (freewill vs election) Debate and Discussion Thread
(29-01-2013 03:46 PM)Richard Stuckmeyer Wrote:  
(29-01-2013 03:40 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Richard, I was under the impression that you were an Arminian.

Answer these questions for me:

1) Do you think that you have freewill?
2) Do you believe that anyone can be saved?
KC,
I'm Christian. Period.
Yes, I have freewill. I can either choose to believe or choose to not believe.
EVERYONE can be saved. All they have to do is believe Jesus died to pay the penalty for their sins.

Well, Rich you're Stuck! And you're totally screwed... at least to some Christee folk who have decided that only the "Elect" ones will be hanging out with Jeeeezus in happy happy heaven land.

You can pick up your membership at the door. Move along. Drinking Beverage

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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29-01-2013, 03:55 PM
RE: The Arminianism vs Calvinism (freewill vs election) Debate and Discussion Thread
(29-01-2013 03:46 PM)Richard Stuckmeyer Wrote:  
(29-01-2013 03:40 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Richard, I was under the impression that you were an Arminian.

Answer these questions for me:

1) Do you think that you have freewill?
2) Do you believe that anyone can be saved?
KC,
I'm Christian. Period.
Yes, I have freewill. I can either choose to believe or choose to not believe.
EVERYONE can be saved. All they have to do is believe Jesus died to pay the penalty for their sins.
Then, yes, you are an Arminian.

You had alluded to a negative view of Calvinism in another topic. So, I'm wondering, what is it about the lack of freewill and predestination that you view negatively?

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29-01-2013, 03:58 PM
RE: The Arminianism vs Calvinism (freewill vs election) Debate and Discussion Thread
(29-01-2013 03:53 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(29-01-2013 03:46 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Why? Because when the ability to question the bible is in play the validity of your (Christian) argument falls apart faster then something that falls apart?

The beauty of science is that the whole thing is up for discussion. When debating science there are no restrictions on what can and cannot be brought up.
Because that's not what we're talking about.
But what you are talking about is only possible if the bible is not up for question.
It's like starting to bake a cake without the eggs. You might as well not bother because without the eggs the whole thing isn't gonna work. (I'm sure you can bake cakes without eggs, it's just a metaphor).

If you believe in things like Jesus etc.. things from the bible, then questioning the bible brings the whole belief into question.

You want to have a serious debate about this, then allow the bible to be questioned otherwise why bother.

I don't talk gay, I don't walk gay, it's like people don't even know I'm gay unless I'm blowing them.
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29-01-2013, 04:02 PM
RE: The Arminianism vs Calvinism (freewill vs election) Debate and Discussion Thread
(29-01-2013 03:58 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(29-01-2013 03:53 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Because that's not what we're talking about.
But what you are talking about is only possible if the bible is not up for question.
It's like starting to bake a cake without the eggs. You might as well not bother because without the eggs the whole thing isn't gonna work. (I'm sure you can bake cakes without eggs, it's just a metaphor).

If you believe in things like Jesus etc.. things from the bible, then questioning the bible brings the whole belief into question.

You want to have a serious debate about this, then allow the bible to be questioned otherwise why bother.
Because that's not a theological debate.

Arminianism vs Calvinism is theological.

Like you said, if you negate the theological part, then there is no debate... which is fine, but that's not what we're talking about. So, in order to have an AvsC debate, certain presumptions have to be set as standards; otherwise, it becomes another trite theism vs atheism debate.

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29-01-2013, 04:06 PM
RE: The Arminianism vs Calvinism (freewill vs election) Debate and Discussion Thread
(29-01-2013 03:58 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  But what you are talking about is only possible if the bible is not up for question.
It's like starting to bake a cake without the eggs. You might as well not bother because without the eggs the whole thing isn't gonna work. (I'm sure you can bake cakes without eggs, it's just a metaphor).

If you believe in things like Jesus etc.. things from the bible, then questioning the bible brings the whole belief into question.

You want to have a serious debate about this, then allow the bible to be questioned otherwise why bother.
Literary debate, muffsikin, literary debate. Think me and hobbitgirl debating who's cooler - Aragorn (obviously!) or Gandalf.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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29-01-2013, 04:06 PM
RE: The Arminianism vs Calvinism (freewill vs election) Debate and Discussion Thread
(29-01-2013 04:02 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(29-01-2013 03:58 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  But what you are talking about is only possible if the bible is not up for question.
It's like starting to bake a cake without the eggs. You might as well not bother because without the eggs the whole thing isn't gonna work. (I'm sure you can bake cakes without eggs, it's just a metaphor).

If you believe in things like Jesus etc.. things from the bible, then questioning the bible brings the whole belief into question.

You want to have a serious debate about this, then allow the bible to be questioned otherwise why bother.
Because that's not a theological debate.

Arminianism vs Calvinism is theological.

Like you said, if you negate the theological part, then there is no debate... which is fine, but that's not what we're talking about. So, in order to have an AvsC debate, certain presumptions have to be set as standards; otherwise, it becomes another trite theism vs atheism debate.

And you don't see the problem with that?
You have to assume that the bible is accurate to be able to discuss these things. That alone shows the thin ice these things are based on, when you have to assume false evidence is true.

You're a smart guy KC, how do you live with your faith knowing that you have to assume things which are refuted over and over and over are true in order to have any ground to stand upon? You're okay with that?

I don't talk gay, I don't walk gay, it's like people don't even know I'm gay unless I'm blowing them.
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29-01-2013, 04:07 PM
RE: The Arminianism vs Calvinism (freewill vs election) Debate and Discussion Thread
(29-01-2013 03:55 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(29-01-2013 03:46 PM)Richard Stuckmeyer Wrote:  KC,
I'm Christian. Period.
Yes, I have freewill. I can either choose to believe or choose to not believe.
EVERYONE can be saved. All they have to do is believe Jesus died to pay the penalty for their sins.
Then, yes, you are an Arminian.

You had alluded to a negative view of Calvinism in another topic. So, I'm wondering, what is it about the lack of freewill and predestination that you view negatively?
No, I am Christian. Don't label me please. I dont follow Mr. Armin. I based my feelings on something I read a long time ago. It's not important. As far as freewill and predestination are concerned they arent important to me. I know I have freewill. The end. Explain what you mean by predestination?
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29-01-2013, 04:07 PM
RE: The Arminianism vs Calvinism (freewill vs election) Debate and Discussion Thread
(29-01-2013 04:06 PM)Vera Wrote:  
(29-01-2013 03:58 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  But what you are talking about is only possible if the bible is not up for question.
It's like starting to bake a cake without the eggs. You might as well not bother because without the eggs the whole thing isn't gonna work. (I'm sure you can bake cakes without eggs, it's just a metaphor).

If you believe in things like Jesus etc.. things from the bible, then questioning the bible brings the whole belief into question.

You want to have a serious debate about this, then allow the bible to be questioned otherwise why bother.
Literary debate, muffsikin, literary debate. Think me and hobbitgirl debating who's cooler - Aragorn (obviously!) or Gandalf.
Considering it's Gimli, there's no debate there.

I don't talk gay, I don't walk gay, it's like people don't even know I'm gay unless I'm blowing them.
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29-01-2013, 04:09 PM
RE: The Arminianism vs Calvinism (freewill vs election) Debate and Discussion Thread
(29-01-2013 04:02 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Like you said, if you negate the theological part, then there is no debate... which is fine, but that's not what we're talking about. So, in order to have an AvsC debate, certain presumptions have to be set as standards; otherwise, it becomes another trite theism vs atheism debate.
Or, alternatively, theism vs agnosticism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. pp. Drinking Beverage

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