The Arminianism vs Calvinism (freewill vs election) Debate and Discussion Thread
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29-01-2013, 04:45 PM
RE: The Arminianism vs Calvinism (freewill vs election) Debate and Discussion Thread
(29-01-2013 04:35 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  
(29-01-2013 04:31 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  They are called this by the Christian faith.

Just like Christians with differing eschatological views are called Pre-Trib, Post-Trib, Amillennial, etc.

If God knew from the beginning who would choose and who wouldn't choose, then there was no choice. Moreover, if God granted us freewill, then He isn't all powerful. Freewill, our actions and whims, govern God. Freewill subjugates God which destroys His omnipotence.
If God exists He is surely more than an arbitrary chooser.
This view also negates the atonement, in my view.
Why give a second chance is all pre arranged?
Not if the atonement was infinite as well. If it's a plan of God, then it was set up infinitely. It ran parallel with election. It wasn't a cause and then an effect.

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29-01-2013, 04:46 PM
RE: The Arminianism vs Calvinism (freewill vs election) Debate and Discussion Thread
(29-01-2013 04:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(29-01-2013 04:33 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Hey Chas!
A lot of people do!
Can you prove them wrong? Consider


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29-01-2013, 04:46 PM
RE: The Arminianism vs Calvinism (freewill vs election) Debate and Discussion Thread
(29-01-2013 04:38 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(29-01-2013 04:14 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Muffs... ugh... you're not getting it.

Yes, I see what you're saying. Yes, I get it.

But, if you don't believe in the Bible, then the beliefs being discussed are moot. There is absolutely no discussion.
No, I get it.

But, if you don't believe in the Bible, then the beliefs being discussed are moot. There is absolutely no discussion.
Now do you see why in order to discuss the topic there has to be that parameter?

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29-01-2013, 04:48 PM
RE: The Arminianism vs Calvinism (freewill vs election) Debate and Discussion Thread
(29-01-2013 04:45 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(29-01-2013 04:35 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  If God exists He is surely more than an arbitrary chooser.
This view also negates the atonement, in my view.
Why give a second chance is all pre arranged?
Not if the atonement was infinite as well. If it's a plan of God, then it was set up infinitely. It ran parallel with election. It wasn't a cause and then an effect.
But why create virtually innocent people to suffer, just to join the exclusive God Club? Drooling
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29-01-2013, 04:50 PM
RE: The Arminianism vs Calvinism (freewill vs election) Debate and Discussion Thread
(29-01-2013 04:06 PM)Vera Wrote:  
(29-01-2013 03:58 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  But what you are talking about is only possible if the bible is not up for question.
It's like starting to bake a cake without the eggs. You might as well not bother because without the eggs the whole thing isn't gonna work. (I'm sure you can bake cakes without eggs, it's just a metaphor).

If you believe in things like Jesus etc.. things from the bible, then questioning the bible brings the whole belief into question.

You want to have a serious debate about this, then allow the bible to be questioned otherwise why bother.
Think me and hobbitgirl debating who's cooler - Aragorn (obviously!) or Gandalf.
OT-

Woah now- clearly Gandalf is far cooler than Aragorn. I have to seriously question your thinking on this one... Can someone point me to this thread where this question is raised?
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29-01-2013, 04:50 PM
RE: The Arminianism vs Calvinism (freewill vs election) Debate and Discussion Thread
(29-01-2013 04:46 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(29-01-2013 04:38 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  No, I get it.

But, if you don't believe in the Bible, then the beliefs being discussed are moot. There is absolutely no discussion.
Now do you see why in order to discuss the topic there has to be that parameter?

It strikes me as mere peripheral bullocks, compared to the more important question of why this should be the case at all. In other words, theology built on the bible is like a house built on a crumbling cliff above the raging sea. Sure, do it if you like, but your foundation is not secure.

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2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
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29-01-2013, 04:51 PM
RE: The Arminianism vs Calvinism (freewill vs election) Debate and Discussion Thread
(29-01-2013 04:48 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  
(29-01-2013 04:45 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Not if the atonement was infinite as well. If it's a plan of God, then it was set up infinitely. It ran parallel with election. It wasn't a cause and then an effect.
But why create virtually innocent people to suffer, just to join the exclusive God Club? Drooling
Because Christ's purpose was set up from infinity as well. And His purpose was to offer salvation for the atoned.

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29-01-2013, 04:54 PM
RE: The Arminianism vs Calvinism (freewill vs election) Debate and Discussion Thread
(29-01-2013 04:39 PM)Richard Stuckmeyer Wrote:  I know you wont like this becuase you want to draw me into a leghty theological discussion but I am not a learned man like you KC. I offer you these questions and answers regarding Calvinism, which I agree with. If you dont wanna read them, fine. Dont ask me any more questions then:
http://gracethrufaith.com/?s=calvinists&cat=3
The fist entry about John 3:16 is highly incorrect. "Whosoever" isn't even in the Greek language. The form of "pas" that is used there is is reference to an "all" of a certain group.

Ask anyone who knows ancient Greek. They will tell you the same thing.

There is an actual Greek word for an all encompassing "all". It isn't used here. It's clear that Jesus is referring to a group of people; not everyone.

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29-01-2013, 04:55 PM
RE: The Arminianism vs Calvinism (freewill vs election) Debate and Discussion Thread
(29-01-2013 04:46 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(29-01-2013 04:38 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  No, I get it.

But, if you don't believe in the Bible, then the beliefs being discussed are moot. There is absolutely no discussion.
Now do you see why in order to discuss the topic there has to be that parameter?
Now? I understood from the beginning, I'm not a fucking moron.

But do you understand why there is no point to the disscussion when it's made entirely moot by the fact that the bible is a load of shit, which is MY point.

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29-01-2013, 04:56 PM
RE: The Arminianism vs Calvinism (freewill vs election) Debate and Discussion Thread
(29-01-2013 04:50 PM)kineo Wrote:  Woah now- clearly Gandalf is far cooler than Aragorn. I have to seriously question your thinking on this one... Can someone point me to this thread where this question is raised?
Bullcrap. Total, unabashed bullcrap. You don't know shit, you Censored Censored and Censored Aragorn is way way sexier.
And so are a couple more folks from The Silmarillion. Nothing can hold a candle to a good (tortured) hero [Image: girl_in_love.gif]


As for the thread, the question was raised briefly somewhere, but no agreement was reached. Like I was gonna toss my pearls before swine like the folks around here Dodgy

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