The Atheism of Deities
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08-10-2014, 02:30 PM
The Atheism of Deities
Just a short post, but I think it's important because it addresses something which the atheist community has a major difficulty dealing with.

An atheist will explain how religions drive people to do bad things, but will immediately go on the defensive about how Stalin, Mao and Kim didn't do what they did because of atheism, but they were just bad and happened to be atheist. This argument is strictly the correct format because 'atheist' is a much broader term than any label of a specific theistic religion, however it isn't fair, and it will always just lose the argument in the eyes of everyone who hears it.

The real answer to this is; are Gods atheists?

Stalin was a god, Mao was a god, and Kim was a god and his descendants remain gods. This is very obvious to see. "State enforced atheism" - bullshit, it was obviously a state enforced religion centered around the head of state complete with shrines, holy books, holy artifacts, prayers and churches. Maybe Stalin was an atheist, if a God is an atheist, but he didn't run an atheistic country, not even slightly.

Is a God an atheist? That is the question, and the only answer to this.

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08-10-2014, 02:33 PM
RE: The Atheism of Deities
(08-10-2014 02:30 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  This argument is strictly the correct format because 'atheist' is a much broader term than any label of a specific theistic religion, however it isn't fair, and it will always just lose the argument in the eyes of everyone who hears it.

Am I missing something? Why are the facts "not fair"?

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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08-10-2014, 02:34 PM
RE: The Atheism of Deities
Before we get into questions like that we need to define what a God IS. What does the word mean?

I also would say that the argument against this stands. These men didn't do these things in the name of atheism. They did it in the name of the state. Whether you can classify statism as a religion is questionable, but it is valid. It has many of the same qualities, even if there are no deities involved.
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08-10-2014, 02:38 PM
RE: The Atheism of Deities
(08-10-2014 02:33 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(08-10-2014 02:30 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  This argument is strictly the correct format because 'atheist' is a much broader term than any label of a specific theistic religion, however it isn't fair, and it will always just lose the argument in the eyes of everyone who hears it.

Am I missing something? Why are the facts "not fair"?

"A is better than B because B makes people bad. Bad people in A are not bad because of A."
Anyone defending B has already won this because the argument makes you sound like a bumbling fool creating a special case for your position.

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08-10-2014, 02:38 PM
RE: The Atheism of Deities
(08-10-2014 02:30 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  Just a short post, but I think it's important because it addresses something which the atheist community has a major difficulty dealing with.

An atheist will explain how religions drive people to do bad things, but will immediately go on the defensive about how Stalin, Mao and Kim didn't do what they did because of atheism, but they were just bad and happened to be atheist. This argument is strictly the correct format because 'atheist' is a much broader term than any label of a specific theistic religion, however it isn't fair, and it will always just lose the argument in the eyes of everyone who hears it.

You wer doing pretty well here...

Quote:The real answer to this is; are Gods atheists?

.. but then you went off the rails.

Quote:Stalin was a god, Mao was a god, and Kim was a god and his descendants remain gods. This is very obvious to see. "State enforced atheism" - bullshit, it was obviously a state enforced religion centered around the head of state complete with shrines, holy books, holy artifacts, prayers and churches. Maybe Stalin was an atheist, if a God is an atheist, but he didn't run an atheistic country, not even slightly.

The argument that all religious people did bad things for religious reasons is utterly flawed, that's true.

However, there are no atrocities committed because 'atheism' while there are many examples of atrocities inarguably committed because of and in the name of religion. Witch burnings, the Inquisition, the Crusades, abortion clinic bombings, murder of doctors, beheading of apostates, ...

Quote:Is a God an atheist? That is the question, and the only answer to this.

Nope.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-10-2014, 02:42 PM
RE: The Atheism of Deities
(08-10-2014 02:38 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  
(08-10-2014 02:33 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Am I missing something? Why are the facts "not fair"?

"A is better than B because B makes people bad. Bad people in A are not bad because of A."
Anyone defending B has already won this because the argument makes you sound like a bumbling fool creating a special case for your position.

This has been dissected fairly well before, but I'll take a stab.

Group B has a set of beliefs which are required, and a set of beliefs that are forbidden. They have required actions and practices which stem from their core teaching.

Group A has none of that. It is simply one position on one subject. There are no required beliefs or thoughts, no forbidden thoughts or beliefs, and no required or even advised actions.
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08-10-2014, 02:42 PM
RE: The Atheism of Deities
(08-10-2014 02:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-10-2014 02:30 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  Just a short post, but I think it's important because it addresses something which the atheist community has a major difficulty dealing with.

An atheist will explain how religions drive people to do bad things, but will immediately go on the defensive about how Stalin, Mao and Kim didn't do what they did because of atheism, but they were just bad and happened to be atheist. This argument is strictly the correct format because 'atheist' is a much broader term than any label of a specific theistic religion, however it isn't fair, and it will always just lose the argument in the eyes of everyone who hears it.

You wer doing pretty well here...

Quote:The real answer to this is; are Gods atheists?

.. but then you went off the rails.

Quote:Stalin was a god, Mao was a god, and Kim was a god and his descendants remain gods. This is very obvious to see. "State enforced atheism" - bullshit, it was obviously a state enforced religion centered around the head of state complete with shrines, holy books, holy artifacts, prayers and churches. Maybe Stalin was an atheist, if a God is an atheist, but he didn't run an atheistic country, not even slightly.

The argument that all religious people did bad things for religious reasons is utterly flawed, that's true.

However, there are no atrocities committed because 'atheism' while there are many examples of atrocities inarguably committed because of and in the name of religion. Witch burnings, the Inquisition, the Crusades, ...

Quote:Is a God an atheist? That is the question, and the only answer to this.

Nope.


I'm not sure if you really read what I said. My argument is that these 'atheists' actually installed themselves as the gods of their own religions, even to the point of building temples for people to worship them in. That leaves the question "are gods atheists?"

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08-10-2014, 02:43 PM
RE: The Atheism of Deities
(08-10-2014 02:38 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  "A is better than B because B makes people bad. Bad people in A are not bad because of A."
Anyone defending B has already won this because the argument makes you sound like a bumbling fool creating a special case for your position.
So "A" is the religious position and "B" is the atheist one? If so, I thought you were saying "B" (the atheist position) is "not fair".

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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08-10-2014, 02:44 PM
RE: The Atheism of Deities
(08-10-2014 02:42 PM)natachan Wrote:  
(08-10-2014 02:38 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  "A is better than B because B makes people bad. Bad people in A are not bad because of A."
Anyone defending B has already won this because the argument makes you sound like a bumbling fool creating a special case for your position.

This has been dissected fairly well before, but I'll take a stab.

Group B has a set of beliefs which are required, and a set of beliefs that are forbidden. They have required actions and practices which stem from their core teaching.

Group A has none of that. It is simply one position on one subject. There are no required beliefs or thoughts, no forbidden thoughts or beliefs, and no required or even advised actions.

That's true, which is why I said it is strictly correct, but if you want to keep someone engaged in an argument it's a very good idea not to make any moves which seem like a special case, otherwise they will see you as handing them a win and cut it off.

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Leonard Nimoy
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08-10-2014, 02:52 PM
RE: The Atheism of Deities
Thanks natachan, I see I had A and B backwards now.

Cetaceaphile, so it's the special case that causes you to say it's "not fair"? I disagree. As you pointed out, it's strictly correct. So, sticking with your argument, I would change "not fair" to "not the strongest position" or something more like that.

However, continuing on, those people weren't gods.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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