The Atheist cop out
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12-05-2013, 07:25 PM
RE: The Atheist cop out
(12-05-2013 06:14 PM)Isserus Wrote:  
(12-05-2013 06:09 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  That's why people are investigating the origin of the universe. Hobo

Yes, and they've been at it. it isn't futile, of course. I'm in no way suggesting that it's futile, only wishing that people could see waving the atheist wand can only defeat certain specific gods, not the possibility of a more broad concept of god ae perhaps even a formless, shapeless god. perhaps part intelligent design, part accidental phenomenon. And there are ways in which such a broad thing can be discussed, remain logical, based in science, but still remain subjective. The whole point of the thread was to stimulate that, to acknowledge that since we do not know for sure, then we should never get to use the phrase "I'm not obligated, as an atheist."

Due. If it ain't "I don't know," it's a conclusion. The scientific method begins with an hypothesis. For instance, my hypothesis is that Gwynnie did it. Philosophically, that's the best hypothesis. And where there ain't enough stuff for science to get a grip on, it helps to remember that science is merely natural philosophy.

Here's what science has a grip on:

[Image: standardmodel.jpg]

And the language to speak of creation is far more likely to be mathematics rather than English. Unless, of course, you wanna hear about my Gwynnies. Heart

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12-05-2013, 07:27 PM
RE: The Atheist cop out
(12-05-2013 06:03 PM)Isserus Wrote:  
(12-05-2013 05:22 PM)cheapthrillseaker Wrote:  Why do you feel the atheist is obligated to answer these questions? Or anyone, for that matter?

The burden of proof resides with those who make the claims.

eg. Someone claims that a god or multiple god exists, it is up to them to provide the proof to convince others.

Since the belief in god or multiple gods is faith-based and faith is the opposite of proof, then proving a god exists is pointless.

If these were important questions, we might try to have a go at answering them, but they're not. Realistically the answers that people are trying to figure out these days are things that apply to current issues, and demands of the human population. And it's not just atheists who are trying to figure out these answers.

I've said many times now, this is not true to what i believe. give me a break, and stop treating me like some bible thumbing, brain washed idiot. I said the burden of proof would be on those making the claims, for those specific gods, religions, etc. What i did suggest is that a much more broad god(super-natural/extra-dimensional being) is plausible, since there is both a lack of proof for the exact origin for the universe, as well as theory to suggest it. And there's of course, theory to dispose it as well too. The point is the discussion shouldn't just end because someone says they're an atheist. that's really all i've ever said.

So you figure disregarding what you previously said and then reiterating is going to make the conversation flow easy, then it's going to be a bumpy flight.

And if you feel my response in any way was an attempt to treat you like a brain washed idiot, the answer is no, and it's sad that you easily get offended at things not meant to offend you.

I doubt anything anyone is going to say to you will actually get to you so I'm going to take a step back now.

Yes! Found the door; it's that way. ------------->

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12-05-2013, 07:36 PM (This post was last modified: 12-05-2013 07:39 PM by Dom.)
RE: The Atheist cop out
Ok, here you go again, since I actually addressed your question about whether there could be such a being:

Quote: [EXPANDED] (Today 02:28 PM)Isserus Wrote:
(Today 02:16 PM)Dom Wrote: That isn't apathy, it's that we get tired of talking about the same thing over and over with theists who drop in here. So, what do you mean by "god"? Some being rather than some event who/that created the universe? Is this being aware of earth?(/quote)

(quote)
*sigh*
If i must be the bad guy in order to stimulate discussion...in a discussionforum, then i'll indulge your barbaric trend.

I am speaking of god as a concept, a means of initiation, creation etc. Does that help? I apologize if i was no clear before.

Again, I'm not theist, thanks for reading my original post -_-'

And my point was if you indeed believe there is no god(as a general, super-natural being, who may have no perceivable form even compatible with our current dimensionality), then there is an obligation to provide some alternative, isn't there?

This isn't a witch hunt, and I'm not dispelling all the advancements made in understanding the origins of the big bang...please act accordingly.
You are way too much on the defensive. I wasn't attacking, I am still trying to figure out what you mean by "god" if you are not a theist.(/quote)


Obviously we can't perceive what we can't perceive, so if there is some being out there that we cannot perceive, we will never know.

Anything is possible, earth could be like an ant hill, and that hill could be in a forest we call universe. And some day a little boy looking like a giant to us will come by and poke the ant hill with a stick. And people will fall to their knees and pray to him for mercy.

What I am saying is that we don't even know our limitations, because there is nothing to measure them against.

So how are we to know if there is some being out there who farted and inadvertently created the big bang?

We used to think we knew everything when we thought the world was flat.

Who says we know everything now that we know about the universe and the big bang? Maybe the universe is a tiny part of something a lot bigger.

So, yes, there may be any number of things and beings out there that we know nothing about. And they may and may not have caused the big bang.

Is that what you mean by god?

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12-05-2013, 07:40 PM
RE: The Atheist cop out
(12-05-2013 06:20 PM)Anjele Wrote:  You aren't here to discuss, you are here to get people to agree with you. That's not a discussion.

That's absurd! I clearly have no one with the slightest interest in engaging me in an open minded discussion, just people throwing insults and accusations, like the one you just posted. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm presenting a point that is essentially being open. it's not contingent on people agreeing...
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12-05-2013, 07:43 PM
RE: The Atheist cop out
(12-05-2013 07:27 PM)cheapthrillseaker Wrote:  
(12-05-2013 06:03 PM)Isserus Wrote:  I've said many times now, this is not true to what i believe. give me a break, and stop treating me like some bible thumbing, brain washed idiot. I said the burden of proof would be on those making the claims, for those specific gods, religions, etc. What i did suggest is that a much more broad god(super-natural/extra-dimensional being) is plausible, since there is both a lack of proof for the exact origin for the universe, as well as theory to suggest it. And there's of course, theory to dispose it as well too. The point is the discussion shouldn't just end because someone says they're an atheist. that's really all i've ever said.

So you figure disregarding what you previously said and then reiterating is going to make the conversation flow easy, then it's going to be a bumpy flight.

And if you feel my response in any way was an attempt to treat you like a brain washed idiot, the answer is no, and it's sad that you easily get offended at things not meant to offend you.

I doubt anything anyone is going to say to you will actually get to you so I'm going to take a step back now.

Yes! Found the door; it's that way. ------------->
lol i took the time to specifically say i'm not offended, as if it couldn't have otherwise been derived from my posts...sheesh. i should be offended though, honestly, since accusing me of being offended is just a way for you not to further any discussion. i have no interest in fighting, just sharing ideas and presenting my previous point.
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12-05-2013, 07:53 PM
RE: The Atheist cop out
(12-05-2013 06:10 PM)Isserus Wrote:  
(12-05-2013 05:49 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Since I don't believe unicorns exist, am I an Aunicornist? No faeries? Afaerieist? Pretty sure Sasquatch doesn't exist, but I leave room for doubt so that must make me an Agbigfootist. I love labels. I could do this for at least the next ten seconds.

This completely disregards what i've been saying. Without getting further off topic ad into discussing why unicorns existing is a harsh reality to believe(Not broad concepts of extra-dimensional beings, as their nature would suggest), I would like to point out that i also dislike labels, and i'm not stressing the label so much as i am stressing the defeated potential discussions when somebody says they're an atheist.

But you are stressing how you believe atheists should believe. Why am I obligated to tell you how the universe started? I don't know. Am I copping out? According to what I'm understanding from your words, every human must believe there is a creator god or else offer an alternative belief. I don't have a belief in the origin of the universe because I don't know how the universe started. If I had a belief I'd tell you what it is. Since I don't, my answer is, I don't know.That is not a cop out, it's reality. It really has nothing to do with being an atheist. I simply do not share the belief of some that it was started by anything supernatural.

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12-05-2013, 07:54 PM
RE: The Atheist cop out
(12-05-2013 07:43 PM)Isserus Wrote:  
(12-05-2013 07:27 PM)cheapthrillseaker Wrote:  So you figure disregarding what you previously said and then reiterating is going to make the conversation flow easy, then it's going to be a bumpy flight.

And if you feel my response in any way was an attempt to treat you like a brain washed idiot, the answer is no, and it's sad that you easily get offended at things not meant to offend you.

I doubt anything anyone is going to say to you will actually get to you so I'm going to take a step back now.

Yes! Found the door; it's that way. ------------->
lol i took the time to specifically say i'm not offended, as if it couldn't have otherwise been derived from my posts...sheesh. i should be offended though, honestly, since accusing me of being offended is just a way for you not to further any discussion. i have no interest in fighting, just sharing ideas and presenting my previous point.

You sure have an interesting way of expressing it. Drinking Beverage

P.S. The Ori are Hallowed.

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12-05-2013, 08:07 PM (This post was last modified: 12-05-2013 09:27 PM by FSM_scot.)
RE: The Atheist cop out
(12-05-2013 02:41 PM)Isserus Wrote:  Skepticism. I value it very much, perhaps why i chose this section to write in first, catering to my agnostic principles, and so i must speak my mind about something I'm sure many of you atheists are all too familiar with. First i'd like to say that I'm no bible-thumbing, finger-wagging, right wing nut job, who thinks you're all evil, ignorant, or otherwise bad people, and expect to be treated with more respect than that.
Ideally, I'd like this facet of my existence to be understood through my future posts, however(on both "theist" and "atheist" forums alike) people have a tendency to criticize, often unfairly, so let's just get this out of the way now.

pushing on--

When it comes down to it, nobody knows when the origin of the known universe, anything and everything started or where it sprang about from. And i do of course realize that when you take it back to that singularity, asking a question like "when" or "before" starts to break down and almost become entirely inapplicable.

However, where why meets how, and touches down to now, is there really no room left for when? Or, for that matter, what came before?

This has nagged and nagged at mankind for a long time and not just "theists," but rather all people. Your own, personal apathy is not reflective of some of the more brilliant thinkers that have come and gone throughout history.

There is no scientific consensus about where exactly everything truly came from, before the big bang.

Evidence, or dare I say, proof for god?
Hardly.
But! Room for God. A general, extra-dimensional, super-natural being(yes, aliens too)? Why the heck not?
To say, that because you are an atheist, you, unlike your theist brethren, are truly not "obligated" to answer that question is such a huge cop out.
To not have to explain how any one(or many) deities in particular created the universe, true, you are not obligated. Anybody can make up a religion(although frankly any religion i make up is not going to have the historical, geographical harmony that some of the more major religions have) and exclaim their particular god did it.
But to come down with such resolve and say there is no chance for any known and unknown god-concepts seems rather arrogant.

Are we to just leave it at that then? Do we surrender to the Buddhist way and assume we are simply incapable of understanding such a massive headache of a truth?

I see the obvious bitter distane many of you would have for organized religion, and rightfully so. But to thereby right off all religion, to then go about claiming that no truth can be found is a bitter, narrow-minded, emotion-based statement of pure diminishement.

And while i do also get the apathy for many others, it is not seeking truth, and is unworthy of a discussion forum.

You have missed the point entirely.

Atheism is not a belief but a lack of belief in a god nothing more. It make no claims about how things started. In fact it makes no claims about anything. So It owes no explanation for how things began. It is not a belief system so why should it make any claims about how it all began? it owes nothing. Its not a cop out.

Is trying to discover how it all began worth it? Absofuckinglutley!.
There are people attempting to do so. If they are atheist then their attempt at searching is not due to their lack of belief in a god.

A lack of belief offering an explanation for everything? Doesn't make sense does it?

Behold the power of the force!
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12-05-2013, 08:09 PM (This post was last modified: 12-05-2013 08:14 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: The Atheist cop out
Well answered everything from a gnostic atheist's point of view. I'm going to go play with my cat.

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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12-05-2013, 08:15 PM
RE: The Atheist cop out
There are pretty much three choices for answers to such deep questions:
1. Yes
2. No
3. I don't know

And number three is a perfectly reasonable answer to things such as is there a god/creator and what exactly started the universe.

To build on that...I don't know and you don't either.

Many that need an answer go with a supernatural one, people have been doing that since, well, since there have been people.

And, I haven't insulted you...yet.

I'm not anti-social. I'm pro-solitude. Sleepy
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