The Atheist cop out
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17-05-2013, 09:37 AM
RE: The Atheist cop out
(17-05-2013 09:11 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(17-05-2013 08:38 AM)Chas Wrote:  That dude joined May 5 and hasn't visited since.

We're not the most welcoming of boards. Big Grin

That's not true..we just don't suffer fools well. If their skin is thick enough or if they're just nice...they can stay.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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17-05-2013, 06:49 PM
The Atheist cop out
(17-05-2013 09:37 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(17-05-2013 09:11 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  We're not the most welcoming of boards. :D

That's not true..we just don't suffer fools well. If their skin is thick enough or if they're just nice...they can stay.

Awww, now I feel all warm and fuzzy. Hugs all around!
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17-05-2013, 07:29 PM
RE: The Atheist cop out
This has nagged and nagged at mankind for a long time and not just "theists," but rather all people.

There is no scientific consensus about where exactly everything truly came from, before the big bang.

who made the maker or where the big bang got its bang has bugged me from both angles as well. i am not so arrogant as to say there is no answer. but there is a difference between theory and mental masturbation. we like to say things like, "do you waste time thinking about where santa gets his power", because we hope there will be a revalation in the religious mind on the thought process it takes to be religiously extreme. i can entertain the theory that a being made of pure energy could exsist. however im not going to waste time thinking about how it likes its coffee. i dont like the childish way both sides go about these conversations, it gets us nowhere. i say the bang for my buck, as far as where it came from..........that scares me. but i'd like to think that it came from another universe, a bit like ours. and when the universe dies it may become another universe, a bit like ours. good topic man. cheers

something cliche about stuffEvil_monster
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18-05-2013, 02:23 PM
RE: The Atheist cop out
Ah the same argument that I got from a drunk outside the bar in the back. Something must have created this stuff. No it was a bunch of weird happenstance. Humans exist because of weirdness. Live with it. Don't pretend some sky thing did it unless it is the FSM.

The "FSM" where is Mario Savio when we need him.

I know without equivication there is no god or gods. Well maybe the rocks and the trees or a river full of fish are gods. They are however earthly gods. Which weird happenstance created.
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18-05-2013, 03:36 PM (This post was last modified: 18-05-2013 03:39 PM by bbeljefe.)
RE: The Atheist cop out
(12-05-2013 02:41 PM)Isserus Wrote:  Skepticism. I value it very much, perhaps why i chose this section to write in first, catering to my agnostic principles, and so i must speak my mind about something I'm sure many of you atheists are all too familiar with. First i'd like to say that I'm no bible-thumbing, finger-wagging, right wing nut job, who thinks you're all evil, ignorant, or otherwise bad people, and expect to be treated with more respect than that.
Ideally, I'd like this facet of my existence to be understood through my future posts, however(on both "theist" and "atheist" forums alike) people have a tendency to criticize, often unfairly, so let's just get this out of the way now.

pushing on--

When it comes down to it, nobody knows when the origin of the known universe, anything and everything started or where it sprang about from. And i do of course realize that when you take it back to that singularity, asking a question like "when" or "before" starts to break down and almost become entirely inapplicable.

However, where why meets how, and touches down to now, is there really no room left for when? Or, for that matter, what came before?

This has nagged and nagged at mankind for a long time and not just "theists," but rather all people. Your own, personal apathy is not reflective of some of the more brilliant thinkers that have come and gone throughout history.

There is no scientific consensus about where exactly everything truly came from, before the big bang.

Evidence, or dare I say, proof for god?
Hardly.
But! Room for God. A general, extra-dimensional, super-natural being(yes, aliens too)? Why the heck not?
To say, that because you are an atheist, you, unlike your theist brethren, are truly not "obligated" to answer that question is such a huge cop out.
To not have to explain how any one(or many) deities in particular created the universe, true, you are not obligated. Anybody can make up a religion(although frankly any religion i make up is not going to have the historical, geographical harmony that some of the more major religions have) and exclaim their particular god did it.
But to come down with such resolve and say there is no chance for any known and unknown god-concepts seems rather arrogant.

Are we to just leave it at that then? Do we surrender to the Buddhist way and assume we are simply incapable of understanding such a massive headache of a truth?

I see the obvious bitter distane many of you would have for organized religion, and rightfully so. But to thereby right off all religion, to then go about claiming that no truth can be found is a bitter, narrow-minded, emotion-based statement of pure diminishement.

And while i do also get the apathy for many others, it is not seeking truth, and is unworthy of a discussion forum.

Agnostic means cannot know. If I truly cannot decide whether I prefer chocolate ice cream or vanilla, it can be said that I'm agnostic to a preference between chocolate and vanilla ice cream. That's pretty straight forward, but when it comes to the notion of what created the universe, it gets complicated.

The agnostic atheist claims that he does not know what created the universe and thus, remains open to the notion that something, somewhere created this universe... be that event or being. We simply don't know. And, perhaps, that knowledge may forever remain beyond our grasp.

Note the absence of a specific word in everything I wrote above. The missing word is god. The reason it's missing is that when we use the word god, we attach attributes to the aforementioned unknowable and, by doing so, assert a knowledge claim that contains a null hypothesis.

That logic fails based on contradiction. Ergo... can not know = can not apply attributes.

This is where your position on agnosticism fails. You might appeal to atheists that since we cannot know, we also cannot say with certainty that the Christian god doesn't exist somewhere outside this universe. But we can. We can because the Christian god has specific, testable attributes that can be falsified. Perhaps not physically, but certainly logically.

For one, the Christian god is said to be all knowing and all powerful. e.g. He knows all and can change all. That's a logical contradiction, because for a being to know all, he must not be able to change anything. And if he can change the future, he cannot know the future.

Based only on that simple logical contradiction, we can say with absolute certainty that the Christian god cannot exist. Not here, not on Mars and not in a universe we haven't seen yet.

But even if we ignore logic and pretend that this agnostic claim is true... can we at least ask for some consistency in agnostic principles? After all, if a god might exist in another universe and as such, we aren't allowed to say he doesn't, then that's a principle (or knowledge claim) that can and should be applied universally.

That said, the agnostic should argue with his math teacher when the teacher marks down a wrong answer. After all, on another universe, 2+2 may indeed equal 5 and since that possibility exists, the teacher has to remain open to it and not mark the answer wrong.

Moreover, if an agnostic kills another person no one should arrest him, because in another universe murder may be the highest moral virtue and, again, we must remain open to that possibility.

Ultimately, the agnostic position (as you're presenting it) is illogical, irrational and inconsistent. Therefore, it deserves no more consideration than the claim that human beings can jump to the moon.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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18-05-2013, 05:46 PM
RE: The Atheist cop out
(12-05-2013 03:28 PM)Isserus Wrote:  And my point was if you indeed believe there is no god (as a general, super-natural being, who may have no perceivable form even compatible with our current dimensionality), then there is an obligation to provide some alternative, isn't there?
No.

(12-05-2013 04:04 PM)Isserus Wrote:  But more accuracy, more specifically, I'm(as i have been from the start) making the case that even if one was to hold to the belief that there is no particular god(s) as described by current religion, isn't some answer still left over?
Isn't the atheist still obligated to provide an answer of some kind?

No.

(12-05-2013 04:04 PM)Isserus Wrote:  And if so(which i believe), couldn't the possible answer to that big question be related to an extra-dimensional being of some kind?
Known or unknown?
Not really. I don't know.
I don't know about the "question" but, I think my answer would be, "I don't know"... but you don't seem to be content with, "I don't know" so, I guess you're on your own.

(12-05-2013 04:04 PM)Isserus Wrote:  I'm not trying to pivot, rather, i'm trying to not be held down by the traditional framework of what we currently know of gods.
A god is a god - the conceptual mind frame is the same whatever you want to label it. A god is a conceptual construct to which one attributes some semblance of power.

(12-05-2013 04:04 PM)Isserus Wrote:  I'm making the point that how can one say that their atheism excuses them from the obligation of answering that question?
Well, considering atheism comes from the Greek atheos, meaning a- ‘without’ and theos ‘god’ ... to be atheist means to be without god so... uh, that.

(12-05-2013 06:03 PM)Isserus Wrote:  What i did suggest is that a much more broad god(super-natural/extra-dimensional being) is plausible, since there is both a lack of proof for the exact origin for the universe, as well as theory to suggest it. The point is the discussion shouldn't just end because someone says they're an atheist.
Well, it probably will end if the atheist doesn't want to have a discussion with a theist about his/her broad super-natural/extra-dimensional being type of god. By the end of the week, a majority of atheists are pretty tired of dealing with someone else's fictitious being. A god by any definition just kind of blows.

Isserus, though you advise you are not a theist, you can't seem to see that you keep coming back to needing just a different view of some "plausible god" to recon with. You do seem to be pretty entrenched in theism - so much so that you feel some need to disguise it - even from yourself. You might want to step back and examine that for a moment.

Your choice of profile pic is appropriate; you are spinning in circles. It's ok - I like how it kind of hurts my eyes. Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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19-05-2013, 02:08 AM
RE: The Atheist cop out
What a strange thread. yet its a repeat of thousands of other such threads.

OP claims: atheist = belief there is no god therefore no speculative discussion about the beginning of the universe can be had if it might involve gods.
Atheists on this thread explain multiple times, in multiple ways that atheists see the god hypothesis as unsupported and poorly defined so they do not accept it. That precludes no discussions.
Op continues despite this to claim atheism is a belief so nar ne nar nar and why are you all pissed at me?

Op also claims that if the answer to how the universe came to be is not accepted as gawd then atheists must provide an alternative answer, but "I don't know" is not allowed.
Atheists explain that they are not cosmologists (most of them) and an answer to that question has not been found yet, may never be found and we are not the ones to find it.
Op continues despite this to claim we have to discuss how the universe came to be based on whim despite finding that a useless pastime.

Been there, done that, again, and again. No new data. Same old errors and unwillingness to understand responses.
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19-05-2013, 08:47 PM
The Atheist cop out
What's with this human need to presume the universe was hand (tentacle?) crafted just for us by a sentience embarrassingly similar to our own? Why does the notion never seem arrogant to these folks?
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19-05-2013, 08:57 PM
RE: The Atheist cop out
(17-05-2013 06:49 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  
(17-05-2013 09:37 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  That's not true..we just don't suffer fools well. If their skin is thick enough or if they're just nice...they can stay.

Awww, now I feel all warm and fuzzy. Hugs all around!

Heart


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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19-05-2013, 09:34 PM (This post was last modified: 19-05-2013 10:01 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: The Atheist cop out
(12-05-2013 02:41 PM)Isserus Wrote:  There is no scientific consensus about where exactly everything truly came from, before the big bang.

Evidence, or dare I say, proof for god?
Hardly.
But! Room for God.

I was not aware that ANY group of scientists were testing where "everything" came from. There is not only "no consensus", they never even tried.
Sorry you're so pissed that *some* atheists refuse to engage in useless speculation, about things which we will never have an answer for, thus wasting everyone's time.
You characterize it as a "cop out". Why ? Just because people refuse to talk about meaningless junk.
If the Big Bang was a singularity, there was no "before" to discuss.
Your childish notion of a god is a waste of time. Which is why many of us are Igtheists. You can't even *define* what the word even means.
It's certainly not that Yahweh dude, (or his wife).
No. No room for god(s).
If you insist on "room for gods" then there is also room for a 1957 Chevy orbiting Pluto.

A "general super-natural bla bla bla", is out. Being, and "existence" require space-time. A god that requires that is not it's creator.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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