The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
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15-12-2014, 11:40 PM
RE: The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
(15-12-2014 10:20 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(15-12-2014 05:05 PM)The Drake Wrote:  You're welcome. Google is our friend.

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16-12-2014, 11:57 AM
RE: The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
(15-12-2014 01:17 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(15-12-2014 11:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  God is an assumption for which millions of people currently claim there is evidence.

And yet so far they've been unable to produce anything that doesn't really boil down to an argument from ignorance.

Bible prophecy, Bible archaeology, Bible veracity.

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16-12-2014, 01:18 PM
RE: The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
(16-12-2014 11:57 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(15-12-2014 01:17 PM)unfogged Wrote:  And yet so far they've been unable to produce anything that doesn't really boil down to an argument from ignorance.

Bible prophecy,

Nothing specific enough to be taken seriously or that isn't explained as easily, if not better, as wishful thinking or writings based on knowledge of the "prophecy".

Quote:Bible archaeology,

Many of the places and even events did happen. The people writing the bible incorporated what they knew into their stories to make them sound true. Charles Dickens used the geography and events of London of his time but that doesn't make Oliver Twist a historical figure. Spiderman isn't real because New York exists. Archaeology does not offer any support for the bible being anything other than a collection of myths.

Quote:Bible veracity.


See Bible archaeology. People wrote the bible based on what they knew. They got some things right and they got some things wrong. Nothing to see here.

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16-12-2014, 02:02 PM
RE: The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
(16-12-2014 01:18 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(16-12-2014 11:57 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Bible prophecy,

Nothing specific enough to be taken seriously or that isn't explained as easily, if not better, as wishful thinking or writings based on knowledge of the "prophecy".

Quote:Bible archaeology,

Many of the places and even events did happen. The people writing the bible incorporated what they knew into their stories to make them sound true. Charles Dickens used the geography and events of London of his time but that doesn't make Oliver Twist a historical figure. Spiderman isn't real because New York exists. Archaeology does not offer any support for the bible being anything other than a collection of myths.

Quote:Bible veracity.


See Bible archaeology. People wrote the bible based on what they knew. They got some things right and they got some things wrong. Nothing to see here.

Does your "nothing specific" include prophecies that the Christ would:
*be born specially of a woman, a virgin
*die for sin
*resurrect from the dead

Some have counted hundreds of specific prophecies of Jesus's advent but I think dying and resurrecting are specific and trumping.

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16-12-2014, 02:31 PM
RE: The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
(16-12-2014 02:02 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Does your "nothing specific" include prophecies that the Christ would:
*be born specially of a woman, a virgin

If if I granted that there was such a prophecy (which I don't), you would need to prove that Jesus was, in fact, born and that Mary was, in fact, still a virgin. When an early chapter of a work of fiction says something will happen and a later chapter says that it did we don't have prophecy, we have a story. Are the deaths of Romeo and Juliet fulfilled prophecy because earlier in the play there are foreshadowings of grief? I consider the bible to be every bit as much a work of fiction.

Quote:*die for sin

Show that "sin" is real. Show that Jesus did, in fact, die. Show that his death was in any way related to sin. Again, a book that says sin was committed and that somebody would die because of that followed up in a later chapter with tales of somebody dying isn't prophecy. It's a story.

Quote:*resurrect from the dead

At the risk of repeating myself, show that Jesus did, in fact, live and was, in fact, resurrected. The story says he was. Many other myths also talk of resurrections and none of them can be taken seriously.

Quote:Some have counted hundreds of specific prophecies of Jesus's advent but I think dying and resurrecting are specific and trumping.

Then your standards of evidence are abysmally low. There is no evidence that Jesus was resurrected outside of stories written decades after the supposed events. There is little, if any, evidence that he existed at all. The stories were written by people who had access to the earlier stories so the idea that they tried to match details to make it look like fulfilled prophecy is a much more reasonable assumption than accepting that a miracle happened.

Even most apologists pull out the canard of Israel being "created in a single day" rather than limit themselves to events from the same book as the prophecy they are trying to demonstrate. You really need to up your game.

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16-12-2014, 03:33 PM
RE: The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
(16-12-2014 02:31 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(16-12-2014 02:02 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Does your "nothing specific" include prophecies that the Christ would:
*be born specially of a woman, a virgin

If if I granted that there was such a prophecy (which I don't), you would need to prove that Jesus was, in fact, born and that Mary was, in fact, still a virgin. When an early chapter of a work of fiction says something will happen and a later chapter says that it did we don't have prophecy, we have a story. Are the deaths of Romeo and Juliet fulfilled prophecy because earlier in the play there are foreshadowings of grief? I consider the bible to be every bit as much a work of fiction.

Quote:*die for sin

Show that "sin" is real. Show that Jesus did, in fact, die. Show that his death was in any way related to sin. Again, a book that says sin was committed and that somebody would die because of that followed up in a later chapter with tales of somebody dying isn't prophecy. It's a story.

Quote:*resurrect from the dead

At the risk of repeating myself, show that Jesus did, in fact, live and was, in fact, resurrected. The story says he was. Many other myths also talk of resurrections and none of them can be taken seriously.

Quote:Some have counted hundreds of specific prophecies of Jesus's advent but I think dying and resurrecting are specific and trumping.

Then your standards of evidence are abysmally low. There is no evidence that Jesus was resurrected outside of stories written decades after the supposed events. There is little, if any, evidence that he existed at all. The stories were written by people who had access to the earlier stories so the idea that they tried to match details to make it look like fulfilled prophecy is a much more reasonable assumption than accepting that a miracle happened.

Even most apologists pull out the canard of Israel being "created in a single day" rather than limit themselves to events from the same book as the prophecy they are trying to demonstrate. You really need to up your game.

You shifted the goalposts. Important Bible prophecies are HIGHLY SPECIFIC.

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16-12-2014, 03:56 PM
RE: The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
(16-12-2014 03:33 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You shifted the goalposts. Important Bible prophecies are HIGHLY SPECIFIC.

I shifted nothing. You have not presented anything that could reasonably be counted as prophecy. Do you have any examples of a prophecy that is specific and can actually be shown to have occurred as predicted?

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17-12-2014, 03:02 PM
RE: The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
(16-12-2014 03:56 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(16-12-2014 03:33 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You shifted the goalposts. Important Bible prophecies are HIGHLY SPECIFIC.

I shifted nothing. You have not presented anything that could reasonably be counted as prophecy. Do you have any examples of a prophecy that is specific and can actually be shown to have occurred as predicted?

Here's why I don't want to respond to your question. You have not backed down from your contention that "Nothing specific enough to be taken seriously or that isn't explained as easily, if not better, as wishful thinking or writings based on knowledge of the "prophecy"..."

The Messiah will rise from the dead is very specific enough to be taken seriously. Why would I defend this until you first admit it should be taken seriously? Until you admit is specific? What could be more specific?

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17-12-2014, 03:18 PM
RE: The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
(17-12-2014 03:02 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(16-12-2014 03:56 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I shifted nothing. You have not presented anything that could reasonably be counted as prophecy. Do you have any examples of a prophecy that is specific and can actually be shown to have occurred as predicted?

Here's why I don't want to respond to your question. You have not backed down from your contention that "Nothing specific enough to be taken seriously or that isn't explained as easily, if not better, as wishful thinking or writings based on knowledge of the "prophecy"..."

The Messiah will rise from the dead is very specific enough to be taken seriously. Why would I defend this until you first admit it should be taken seriously? Until you admit is specific? What could be more specific?

Not specific. No clue given as to who the Messiah will be. Even in the Bible it's said somewhere that the jokers were keen to make him into a "Worldly king" - not king of a spiritual kingdom, so even by your own book, it's not specific enough to nail down who the fuck or what the fuck the messiah was, if his own followers were expecting a military leader.

Will rise from the dead is also problematic. Even if taken at face value, how do we know such an event occurred? The Bible, written by believers, for believers, says so. That's *it*. That's all the evidence.

Not an admissible prophecy, unless you can address these concerns.

Let's say you do. Now we have a bona fide prophecy. Someone made a prediction of the future, quite a funky one, and it came true. Does that say *anything* about other stuff this joker says? Prophecy proves sweet stuff all other than that the guy made a correct prediction.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-12-2014, 03:21 PM
RE: The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
(17-12-2014 03:02 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(16-12-2014 03:56 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I shifted nothing. You have not presented anything that could reasonably be counted as prophecy. Do you have any examples of a prophecy that is specific and can actually be shown to have occurred as predicted?

Here's why I don't want to respond to your question. You have not backed down from your contention that "Nothing specific enough to be taken seriously or that isn't explained as easily, if not better, as wishful thinking or writings based on knowledge of the "prophecy"..."

The Messiah will rise from the dead is very specific enough to be taken seriously. Why would I defend this until you first admit it should be taken seriously? Until you admit is specific? What could be more specific?

In the Lord of the Rings when Frodo was in Lothlorien he was shown a prophecy of what would happen later. When he reached Mordor it happened. That was specific too. It was also just a part of a story.

"The messiah will rise from the dead" is the same thing. Your only evidence that it happened is that it was written in a book. I don't accept that it happened; I think the person who wrote it did so intentionally to claim that the prophecy had been fulfilled. My objection is not that it isn't specific but that it is "explained as easily, if not better, as wishful thinking or writings based on knowledge of the prophecy".

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