The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
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17-12-2014, 03:30 PM
RE: The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
(17-12-2014 03:21 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(17-12-2014 03:02 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Here's why I don't want to respond to your question. You have not backed down from your contention that "Nothing specific enough to be taken seriously or that isn't explained as easily, if not better, as wishful thinking or writings based on knowledge of the "prophecy"..."

The Messiah will rise from the dead is very specific enough to be taken seriously. Why would I defend this until you first admit it should be taken seriously? Until you admit is specific? What could be more specific?

In the Lord of the Rings when Frodo was in Lothlorien he was shown a prophecy of what would happen later. When he reached Mordor it happened. That was specific too. It was also just a part of a story.

"The messiah will rise from the dead" is the same thing. Your only evidence that it happened is that it was written in a book. I don't accept that it happened; I think the person who wrote it did so intentionally to claim that the prophecy had been fulfilled. My objection is not that it isn't specific but that it is "explained as easily, if not better, as wishful thinking or writings based on knowledge of the prophecy".

The resurrection story is also a convenient way to claim your "savior" is still alive, but in heaven (unable to prove it), despite everyone seeing him executed as a common criminal. All you have to do is get people to believe your story to maintain your cult despite the leader being executed.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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17-12-2014, 06:59 PM
RE: The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
This thread has been hijacked by Q. Sadcryface2 Where is Jean Luc when I need him ? So back to my original question.

Q, if evidence (real, tangible, provable, repeatable) presented itself that we were created/designed by another intelligence other than some magical, unfathomable being in the sky, could you accept that ?

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17-12-2014, 07:11 PM
RE: The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
(16-12-2014 03:33 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(16-12-2014 02:31 PM)unfogged Wrote:  If if I granted that there was such a prophecy (which I don't), you would need to prove that Jesus was, in fact, born and that Mary was, in fact, still a virgin. When an early chapter of a work of fiction says something will happen and a later chapter says that it did we don't have prophecy, we have a story. Are the deaths of Romeo and Juliet fulfilled prophecy because earlier in the play there are foreshadowings of grief? I consider the bible to be every bit as much a work of fiction.


Show that "sin" is real. Show that Jesus did, in fact, die. Show that his death was in any way related to sin. Again, a book that says sin was committed and that somebody would die because of that followed up in a later chapter with tales of somebody dying isn't prophecy. It's a story.


At the risk of repeating myself, show that Jesus did, in fact, live and was, in fact, resurrected. The story says he was. Many other myths also talk of resurrections and none of them can be taken seriously.


Then your standards of evidence are abysmally low. There is no evidence that Jesus was resurrected outside of stories written decades after the supposed events. There is little, if any, evidence that he existed at all. The stories were written by people who had access to the earlier stories so the idea that they tried to match details to make it look like fulfilled prophecy is a much more reasonable assumption than accepting that a miracle happened.

Even most apologists pull out the canard of Israel being "created in a single day" rather than limit themselves to events from the same book as the prophecy they are trying to demonstrate. You really need to up your game.

You shifted the goalposts. Important Bible prophecies are HIGHLY SPECIFIC.

I could make a hundred "prophecies" about the next ten years. If I base them on current trends I'm betting I could get at least 25% right. After I'm dead, if enough people believe in me they could write a book, and make that 25% seem like 100%. See "The Drake said it was going to happen, and it did !". All hail The Drake.Bowing

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17-12-2014, 07:22 PM
RE: The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
(07-12-2014 04:58 PM)The Drake Wrote:  OK, It's Sunday (Pagan reference) and I'm drunk...so what better to talk about than religion. I'll save the politics for next weekTongue. This is my first thread so bear with me.

I have a good friend who is a theist (evangelical Christian...they come in all flavors, just like us) who asked me why, in spite of all the evidence (non existent), I didn't believe in GOD. So I proposed a little thought experiment for him.

Suppose I were to entertain the thought that we were created/designed/engineered by an entity/being/intelligence.

I would posit:

A) That it was done in a way that could be explained scientifically (If not then we just don't know the science yet)

B) Said being was mortal, fallible, and limited.

C) That being no longer exists (see B)

I know...it sounds like the whole "Ancient Aliens" thing, doesn't it ? But it's the only explanation that works for "Creation".

So I'm wondering, are there any Theists out there who could accept this if it were true ? What would they do if their GOD turned out to be an alien ?

Even Richard Dawkins accepts the possibility of humans being of extraterrestrial design. Here's an excerpt:

Quote:BEN STEIN: What do you think is the possibility that Intelligent Design might turn out to be the answer to some issues in genetics or in evolution?

DAWKINS: Well, it could come about in the following way. It could be that at some earlier time, somewhere in the universe, a civilization evolved, probably by some kind of Darwinian means, probably to a very high level of technology, and designed a form of life that they seeded onto perhaps this planet. Now that is a possibility, and an intriguing possibility. And I suppose it's possible that you might find evidence for that if you look at the details of biochemistry, molecular biology, you might find a signature of some sort of designer.

Personally, I hypothesize that all life on earth evolved on earth, but the origins of life on earth did not begin on earth.

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17-12-2014, 07:37 PM
RE: The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
Quote:BEN STEIN: What do you think is the possibility that Intelligent Design might turn out to be the answer to some issues in genetics or in evolution?

DAWKINS: Well, it could come about in the following way. It could be that at some earlier time, somewhere in the universe, a civilization evolved, probably by some kind of Darwinian means, probably to a very high level of technology, and designed a form of life that they seeded onto perhaps this planet. Now that is a possibility, and an intriguing possibility. And I suppose it's possible that you might find evidence for that if you look at the details of biochemistry, molecular biology, you might find a signature of some sort of designer.

That was Ben Stein (who I respect as a humorist) trying to get Dawkins to admit to the possibility of God (disguised as intelligent design). Dawkins' response boils down to "SHOW ME THE PROOF !"

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17-12-2014, 07:48 PM
RE: The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
OK let me put it another way. If there was actual scientific evidence that we were the product of intelligent design, would that ruin the "MAGIC" ?

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17-12-2014, 07:49 PM
RE: The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
(17-12-2014 07:48 PM)The Drake Wrote:  OK let me put it another way. If there was actual scientific evidence that we were the product of intelligent design, would that ruin the "MAGIC" ?

Starting a new thread based on this.

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17-12-2014, 10:20 PM
RE: The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
(17-12-2014 07:37 PM)The Drake Wrote:  
Quote:BEN STEIN: What do you think is the possibility that Intelligent Design might turn out to be the answer to some issues in genetics or in evolution?

DAWKINS: Well, it could come about in the following way. It could be that at some earlier time, somewhere in the universe, a civilization evolved, probably by some kind of Darwinian means, probably to a very high level of technology, and designed a form of life that they seeded onto perhaps this planet. Now that is a possibility, and an intriguing possibility. And I suppose it's possible that you might find evidence for that if you look at the details of biochemistry, molecular biology, you might find a signature of some sort of designer.

That was Ben Stein (who I respect as a humorist) trying to get Dawkins to admit to the possibility of God (disguised as intelligent design). Dawkins' response boils down to "SHOW ME THE PROOF !"

Yes, and there's tons of stuff about Dawkins and his belief in intelligent extraterrestrial life. Hawking too.

I emailed Stephen Hawking about 7 years ago and actually got a reply. I was freaked. I never expected that.

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18-12-2014, 07:08 AM
RE: The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
(17-12-2014 10:20 PM)Free Wrote:  
(17-12-2014 07:37 PM)The Drake Wrote:  That was Ben Stein (who I respect as a humorist) trying to get Dawkins to admit to the possibility of God (disguised as intelligent design). Dawkins' response boils down to "SHOW ME THE PROOF !"

Yes, and there's tons of stuff about Dawkins and his belief in intelligent extraterrestrial life. Hawking too.

I emailed Stephen Hawking about 7 years ago and actually got a reply. I was freaked. I never expected that.

To be more precise (that is, less misleading) Hawking and Dawkins believe in the high probability of the existence of life, possibly intelligent, elsewhere in the universe.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-12-2014, 07:56 AM (This post was last modified: 18-12-2014 08:15 AM by Free.)
RE: The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
(18-12-2014 07:08 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(17-12-2014 10:20 PM)Free Wrote:  Yes, and there's tons of stuff about Dawkins and his belief in intelligent extraterrestrial life. Hawking too.

I emailed Stephen Hawking about 7 years ago and actually got a reply. I was freaked. I never expected that.

To be more precise (that is, less misleading) Hawking and Dawkins believe in the high probability of the existence of life, possibly intelligent, elsewhere in the universe.

I see no difference.

"Believing" in something always denotes the possibility that the belief can be wrong. "Probability" is necessarily implicit with any beliefs.

A "high probability" denotes a likelihood; a far better chance that there is intelligent extraterrestrial life elsewhere.

I share this high probability view.

Stephen Hawking believes extraterrestrial life almost certainly exists, and humans should be extremely cautious about interacting with it. I share this view also. Here's more.

Quote:He suggests that aliens might simply raid Earth for its resources and then move on: "We only have to look at ourselves to see how intelligent life might develop into something we wouldn't want to meet. I imagine they might exist in massive ships, having used up all the resources from their home planet. Such advanced aliens would perhaps become nomads, looking to conquer and colonise whatever planets they can reach."

He concludes that trying to make contact with alien races is "a little too risky". He said: "If aliens ever visit us, I think the outcome would be much as when Christopher Columbus first landed in America, which didn't turn out very well for the Native Americans."

I'm not in 100% agreement with his quoted view above, though. I think it will be- or already has been - much different than that.

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