The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
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18-12-2014, 02:49 PM
RE: The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
(18-12-2014 11:45 AM)Free Wrote:  Be it known that I do not share this view. My views are actually very different.

Well, I've gone back and re-read your posts in this thread and am lost as to what point you are trying to make then.

Quote:Dawkins must have reasoning and a rationale to postulate the possibility that aliens seeded the earth. People just don't blurt this stuff out without having a legitimate reason to make these statements.

His reason was that Ben Stein was pushing him to come up with ANY scenario under which 'intelligent design' would be a possibility. He responded by talking about intelligence evolving elsewhere and then intentionally seeding the Earth. He called it an intriguing idea but it is not at all clear to me that he considers it likely; it is just the best option he could come up with to explain ID if it were shown to be true.

Quote:Well, it's rather clear what Dawkins believes. He finds it possible that earth was seeded by intelligent alien lifeforms. He clearly states his views on the chances of intelligent life existing elsewhere as being very high.

Reading those ideas juxtaposed like that I am inferring that you are suggesting that Dawkins supports the idea that aliens may have started life on Earth. If so, I don't think you are representing his position fairly. The former certainly requires the latter but even if he does accept the latter, which may be debatable but wouldn't surprise me if he did, it is pretty clear that he rates the chances of the former as being very remote.

From Dawkins' post about it:
Quote:My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed.

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18-12-2014, 02:54 PM
RE: The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
(18-12-2014 02:49 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(18-12-2014 11:45 AM)Free Wrote:  Be it known that I do not share this view. My views are actually very different.

Well, I've gone back and re-read your posts in this thread and am lost as to what point you are trying to make then.

Quote:Dawkins must have reasoning and a rationale to postulate the possibility that aliens seeded the earth. People just don't blurt this stuff out without having a legitimate reason to make these statements.

His reason was that Ben Stein was pushing him to come up with ANY scenario under which 'intelligent design' would be a possibility. He responded by talking about intelligence evolving elsewhere and then intentionally seeding the Earth. He called it an intriguing idea but it is not at all clear to me that he considers it likely; it is just the best option he could come up with to explain ID if it were shown to be true.

Quote:Well, it's rather clear what Dawkins believes. He finds it possible that earth was seeded by intelligent alien lifeforms. He clearly states his views on the chances of intelligent life existing elsewhere as being very high.

Reading those ideas juxtaposed like that I am inferring that you are suggesting that Dawkins supports the idea that aliens may have started life on Earth. If so, I don't think you are representing his position fairly. The former certainly requires the latter but even if he does accept the latter, which may be debatable but wouldn't surprise me if he did, it is pretty clear that he rates the chances of the former as being very remote.

From Dawkins' post about it:
Quote:My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed.

I have no disagreement here.

But the point is, he still posited the possibility.

Smile

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18-12-2014, 02:57 PM
RE: The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
(18-12-2014 02:47 PM)Free Wrote:  
(18-12-2014 02:34 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  It's a word that admits of a wide range of definitions. I'm pretty sure that when you use the phrase "intelligent life" in these discussions, you would like it to mean life that is capable of building spaceships and piloting those ships across vast expanses of space to visit other intelligent life in other star systems. Nowhere has Dawkins said that this type of intelligent life is "extremely likely" -- only that it's possible. You keep trying to morph one statement into the other, and I'm not buying it. 1% and 99% are both possibilities, and they are both probabilities (see how slippery those words can be?), but they are definitely not the same thing.

And would you understand that applying the human concept of what intelligence is to an extraterrestrial life form is absolutely no different than applying the same concept to say ... a hippopotamus, duck, or some bees?

As humans, do you really think that we have the market cornered on what intelligence actually is?

And finally, are you suggesting somehow that "evolved life" does not include intelligent life? Rationalize that position please.

Drinking Beverage

I don't need to rationalize anything. Evolved life can include intelligent life, but it does not necessarily include it. I will restate my previous analogy: "money in my pocket" could be a penny or a check for a million dollars -- it does not have to be the latter. You are really stretching to try to make Dawkins agree with you. It's not working. He didn't say what you want him to have said.
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18-12-2014, 03:16 PM (This post was last modified: 18-12-2014 04:09 PM by Free.)
RE: The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
(18-12-2014 02:57 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(18-12-2014 02:47 PM)Free Wrote:  And would you understand that applying the human concept of what intelligence is to an extraterrestrial life form is absolutely no different than applying the same concept to say ... a hippopotamus, duck, or some bees?

As humans, do you really think that we have the market cornered on what intelligence actually is?

And finally, are you suggesting somehow that "evolved life" does not include intelligent life? Rationalize that position please.

Drinking Beverage

I don't need to rationalize anything.

Well now ... if you don't need to rationalize anything, then why are you making an attempt to rationalize it in the next quote?


Quote:Evolved life can include intelligent life, but it does not necessarily include it.

The obvious point is, he does not exclude it. Other wise he would have said so. Therefore, it DOES include it because his statement is implicit of it. I mean seriously ... when you think of evolved life on earth do you not include humans? And do you not consider humans intelligent?

Sorry, but I don't get your lack of comprehension here.

Quote:You are really stretching to try to make Dawkins agree with you. It's not working. He didn't say what you want him to have said.

Whatever you say champ. Keep grasping at straws, you might get lucky, you never know!

Tongue

Edit: Just so we don't continue this argument, I will no longer string you along just to blast you to pieces later with the big bombshell. I think it's only fair.

Hence, from Richard Dawkins himself:

Richard Dawkins

Our galaxy is crawling with intelligent life.

There's your "smoking gun."

Seriously though, I have no idea why many of you people have this problem with accepting the near certainty of intelligent extraterrestrial life existing.

It is by no means "an extraordinary claim." It's actually a very reasonable and rational position to hold.

Consider

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18-12-2014, 04:26 PM
RE: The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
(18-12-2014 03:16 PM)Free Wrote:  Edit: Just so we don't continue this argument, I will no longer string you along just to blast you to pieces later with the big bombshell. I think it's only fair.

Hence, from Richard Dawkins himself:

Richard Dawkins

Our galaxy is crawling with intelligent life.

If he actually said that, why didn't you say so 20 posts or so ago? Why do you keep trying to twist other quotes that do not say that?

Aside from that, the link you give is to some forum claiming (in a thread title) that Dawkins said "Our galaxy is crawling with intelligent life". Sorry, but I'm not watching a 2-hour video just to see if that one quote is in there. Interestingly, right below the video the person who posted it says "The most hard-lined skepctical scientist in the world admits that our galaxy is crawling if life, based on the simple laws of probability." Aside from his inability to spell simple words correctly, the word "intelligent" is conspicuously missing, so I have to wonder if he is wilfully misquoting Dawkins (in the thread title), just like you have been doing.

You seem to think that "life" and "intelligent life" are interchangeable terms. I respectfully disagree. I have yet to see an actual verified quote of Dawkins saying that intelligent life beyond this planet is anything more than a possibility. Until I do see that, I maintain that you are the one grasping at straws. When I'm quoting someone, I don't change the quote to suit my agenda. I quote exactly what they said. That's what the word "quote" means.
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18-12-2014, 05:01 PM
RE: The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
(18-12-2014 04:26 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(18-12-2014 03:16 PM)Free Wrote:  Edit: Just so we don't continue this argument, I will no longer string you along just to blast you to pieces later with the big bombshell. I think it's only fair.

Hence, from Richard Dawkins himself:

Richard Dawkins

Our galaxy is crawling with intelligent life.

If he actually said that, why didn't you say so 20 posts or so ago? Why do you keep trying to twist other quotes that do not say that?

Aside from that, the link you give is to some forum claiming (in a thread title) that Dawkins said "Our galaxy is crawling with intelligent life". Sorry, but I'm not watching a 2-hour video just to see if that one quote is in there. Interestingly, right below the video the person who posted it says "The most hard-lined skepctical scientist in the world admits that our galaxy is crawling if life, based on the simple laws of probability." Aside from his inability to spell simple words correctly, the word "intelligent" is conspicuously missing, so I have to wonder if he is wilfully misquoting Dawkins (in the thread title), just like you have been doing.

You seem to think that "life" and "intelligent life" are interchangeable terms. I respectfully disagree. I have yet to see an actual verified quote of Dawkins saying that intelligent life beyond this planet is anything more than a possibility. Until I do see that, I maintain that you are the one grasping at straws. When I'm quoting someone, I don't change the quote to suit my agenda. I quote exactly what they said. That's what the word "quote" means.

You seem distressed.

Have you figured out that "evolved life" implicitly includes intelligent life yet? Are humans evolved? Are we intelligent?

Put it all together now ...

Drinking Beverage

Dawkins talks about intelligent life beginning at around the 28:00 mark to about the 40:00 mark.

The quote is actually misleading.

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18-12-2014, 05:05 PM
RE: The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
(18-12-2014 07:08 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(17-12-2014 10:20 PM)Free Wrote:  Yes, and there's tons of stuff about Dawkins and his belief in intelligent extraterrestrial life. Hawking too.

I emailed Stephen Hawking about 7 years ago and actually got a reply. I was freaked. I never expected that.

To be more precise (that is, less misleading) Hawking and Dawkins believe in the high probability of the existence of life, possibly intelligent, elsewhere in the universe.

Thank you. Hawking never said he believed in ID in the way it was implied by Stein. Going back to my OP, I think fundies would absolutely lose their cookies if there was scientifically verifiable evidence of intelligent design. They would continue to cower and prostrate in fear as science reveals their creator.

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18-12-2014, 05:12 PM
RE: The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
(18-12-2014 05:01 PM)Free Wrote:  
(18-12-2014 04:26 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  If he actually said that, why didn't you say so 20 posts or so ago? Why do you keep trying to twist other quotes that do not say that?

Aside from that, the link you give is to some forum claiming (in a thread title) that Dawkins said "Our galaxy is crawling with intelligent life". Sorry, but I'm not watching a 2-hour video just to see if that one quote is in there. Interestingly, right below the video the person who posted it says "The most hard-lined skepctical scientist in the world admits that our galaxy is crawling if life, based on the simple laws of probability." Aside from his inability to spell simple words correctly, the word "intelligent" is conspicuously missing, so I have to wonder if he is wilfully misquoting Dawkins (in the thread title), just like you have been doing.

You seem to think that "life" and "intelligent life" are interchangeable terms. I respectfully disagree. I have yet to see an actual verified quote of Dawkins saying that intelligent life beyond this planet is anything more than a possibility. Until I do see that, I maintain that you are the one grasping at straws. When I'm quoting someone, I don't change the quote to suit my agenda. I quote exactly what they said. That's what the word "quote" means.

You seem distressed.

Have you figured out that "evolved life" implicitly includes intelligent life yet? Are humans evolved? Are we intelligent?

I am not distressed, just annoyed by your wilful obfuscation. "Evolved life" most assuredly does not implicitly include intelligent life, any more than "money in my pocket" implicitly means I am a millionaire. Evolved life has been present on this planet for billions of years. For most of that time, none of it would be considered intelligent in the sense that humans are intelligent. Evolution is an ongoing process, not a single well-defined state. Intelligent life must have evolved, but evolved life need not be intelligent. Have you figured that out yet?
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18-12-2014, 05:16 PM
RE: The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
(18-12-2014 05:12 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(18-12-2014 05:01 PM)Free Wrote:  You seem distressed.

Have you figured out that "evolved life" implicitly includes intelligent life yet? Are humans evolved? Are we intelligent?

I am not distressed, just annoyed by your wilful obfuscation. "Evolved life" most assuredly does not implicitly include intelligent life, any more than "money in my pocket" implicitly means I am a millionaire. Evolved life has been present on this planet for billions of years. For most of that time, none of it would be considered intelligent in the sense that humans are intelligent. Evolution is an ongoing process, not a single well-defined state. Intelligent life must have evolved, but evolved life need not be intelligent. Have you figured that out yet?

Okay so by your understanding of "evolved life," we need exclude intelligent humans from the evolutionary process. I will let all scientists know on your behalf.

So ... here we go with a creator again?

Allah Akbar!

Tongue

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18-12-2014, 05:22 PM
RE: The Athiest "SPECIAL" creation story.
WOW...I mean WOW Chas and Grasshopper. I think we all know that Dawkins and Hawking "entertain/believe" the "possibility/certainty" of life, intelligent or otherwise, on one of the myriad of planets we KNOW to exist. Why are you guys arguing about it ? Do we need Mom to send you to your rooms ?Gasp

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