The Benefits of the Fair Tax
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12-02-2014, 06:01 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(12-02-2014 04:43 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(12-02-2014 04:25 PM)frankksj Wrote:  The only exception is Switzerland, which kept their franc pegged to gold throughout the 20th century. That's why Switzerland never had inflation, why gas, food, houses, etc., cost the same in 1990 as in 1970. As I mentioned in other posts, it also directly contributed to Switzerland's economic success.

Right.


BURN!!!!!!!! Ouch Frank. That musta really hurt.

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12-02-2014, 06:01 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(12-02-2014 05:48 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I was about to say that if he didn't get it when I said that I don't see why he'd get it when you say it, but, knowing him? That's actually possible.

I too can not understand this as Frank has listed many alternative currencies that have been used throughout history. This in itself is proof that anything really can be used as currency if there is faith in its usage.

(like you have previously stated in different forms)

EDIT: From looking at this convo I see personal insults. I understand peoples passions behind their belief systems but insults do not add anything to the debate. (says I, the hypocrite)

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12-02-2014, 06:08 PM (This post was last modified: 12-02-2014 06:15 PM by Cathym112.)
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(12-02-2014 05:39 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(12-02-2014 05:16 PM)frankksj Wrote:  3. Diamonds? No 2 diamonds are the same, so the value of a diamond is very subjective.

Yes, much as the value of - oh, let's say, bits of metal.

Does Frank understand that a diamond is a common rock, whose value is only inherent NOW because the Supply of diamonds is controlled. That and the social construct that in order to get married, you would need one of these gems.

The social dynamic created the demand, the diamond miners controlled the supply. NOW you have value for an object.

And the value of a diamond is not subjective at all.

(12-02-2014 05:16 PM)frankksj Wrote:  It's got to be something that, when pure, is consistent and easily divisible into discrete units of varying quantities, meaning it needs to be a solid at room temperature for convenient carrying, but with a reasonable melting point to divide it into smaller units.

Yeah...cuz gold doesn't have a purity scale or anything. There is no such thing as fool's gold, either.


He also has no concept of history. Camels, cows, and livestock were the FIRST forms of currency. From Frank's favorite source, Wikipedia : "An early type of money were cattle, which were used as such from between 9000 to 6000 BCE onwards (Davies 1996 & 1999)[38][39] Both the animal and the manure produced were valuable; animals are recorded as being used as payment as in Roman law where fines were paid in oxen and sheep (Rollin 1836)[40][41][42] and within the Iliad and Odyssey, attesting to a value c.850–800 BCE (Evans & Schmalensee 2005).[43][44]
"

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12-02-2014, 06:13 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(12-02-2014 05:44 PM)bemore Wrote:  Can you elaborate more on how Dollars are untraceable Frank?

I mean that if I walk to the corner and hand a drug dealer a $100 bill for some drugs, and the cops bust him later, they have no way of knowing where that $100 bill came from. Whereas bitcoin is supposed to be anonymous, there's always a digital footprint on the internet. Therefore, the feds saying they're shutting down bitcoin because it can be used to buy drugs, and people instead should keep buying their illegal drugs with US dollar bills, is ridiculous.

(12-02-2014 05:44 PM)bemore Wrote:  I can see why you see Bitcoin as an alternative because it is finite. However it starts to come undone when you see other alternative "coins" being released (peercoin, litecoin, namecoin etc) so potentially this is not finite. It becomes "fiat" to the degree that it is not issued by the government but it has faith applied to its value and usage.

First, I'm in favor of having competing currencies, because competition keeps them on their feet. The worst offenders of all to manage currency are the governments. Only the government holds a gun to your head and forces you to accept those worthless pieces of paper against your will so they can debase the currency as much as they want. If bitcoin did what the Fed does, nobody would use bitcoing, and commerce would switch to some other medium of exchange, or maybe go back to gold.

Nothing is perfect. Neither gold nor bitcoin is. The question is what's less bad. As far as the US dollar, it's had a horrible track record. It's lost 93% of it's value. To prop it up the US has had to make sure oil is only traded in dollars and launch an attack against any oil producing country that tried accepting other currencies. These sanctions blocking countries from selling oil in other currencies has resulted in the deaths of millions of innocent people. It's creating huge inequality.

While gold may not be perfect, civilizations were able to thrive and prosper for a thousand years on a gold standard, enjoying stable prices, so people could plan for their future, save, invest, and build. Whereas the fiat currencies have been 3,000 times and have a 100% record of failure, gold has been tried and has a 100% record of success. It's never failed. You can plop yourself in a time machine and go to any random spot in time in some random place, and if you have gold in your pocket, you'll be able to buy room and board with it.

So, if I had to pick between one currency with a 100% record of failure, and another with a 100% record of success, I'd choose the latter. The only reason we're stuck using US dollars is because the government forces us to at gunpoint.
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12-02-2014, 06:15 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(12-02-2014 06:08 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  There is no such thing as fool's gold, either.

You seriously don't realize you just proved my point?!?!! It's called 'fool's gold' because gold has unique attributes that cannot be copied, so only fools get tricked into thinking it's gold. Duh.
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12-02-2014, 06:20 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(12-02-2014 06:01 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(12-02-2014 04:43 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Right.


BURN!!!!!!!! Ouch Frank. That musta really hurt.

Not at all. I've got the facts on my side, as always. TheEWI Stable Currency Index, the most popular measurement, lists the #1 most stable currency in the world as..... drumroll.... The Swiss Franc. Just like I said.

Sure, Switzerland isn't perfect, and the oil crisis in the 70's affected the franc. But, overall, just like I said, it's the most stable currency on the planet. That chart compares it to other currencies.

Ouch, that musta really hurt.
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12-02-2014, 06:23 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
Cathy, before you go off saying the gold standard caused the Great Depression, I'd like to remind you what the chairman of the Fed, Ben Bernake said:

"Let me end my talk by abusing slightly my status as an official representative of the Federal Reserve System. I would like to say to Milton and Anna: Regarding the Great Depression. You're right, we did it. We're very sorry. But thanks to you, we won't do it again."

As Milton Friedman pointed out, were it not for your beloved Fed, the Great Depression would have been another garden variety recession. The Fed in all their stupidity shrunk the money supply when the recession set in.
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12-02-2014, 06:24 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(12-02-2014 06:15 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(12-02-2014 06:08 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  There is no such thing as fool's gold, either.

You seriously don't realize you just proved my point?!?!! It's called 'fool's gold' because gold has unique attributes that cannot be copied, so only fools get tricked into thinking it's gold. Duh.


Its called fools gold because it resembles gold and without an alchemist, you do not know if the gold is real.

Remember...the ONE thing you demanded an example of in a "low tech society"

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12-02-2014, 06:28 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(12-02-2014 06:23 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Cathy, before you go off saying the gold standard caused the Great Depression, I'd like to remind you what the chairman of the Fed, Ben Bernake said:

"Let me end my talk by abusing slightly my status as an official representative of the Federal Reserve System. I would like to say to Milton and Anna: Regarding the Great Depression. You're right, we did it. We're very sorry. But thanks to you, we won't do it again."

As Milton Friedman pointed out, were it not for your beloved Fed, the Great Depression would have been another garden variety recession. The Fed in all their stupidity shrunk the money supply when the recession set in.

except that I said nothing of the sort. See the quote. Read this time.

(12-02-2014 05:54 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Gold Standard Made the Great Depression Worse

Do I honestly have to tell you the difference between the word "caused" and the word "worse"

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12-02-2014, 06:29 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(12-02-2014 06:08 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Camels, cows, and livestock were the FIRST forms of currency.

Remember, my challenge to you was to name one substance you thought would make a better medium of exchange to build a modern economy on. Just to confirm, that's your official answer? Camels and cows?

ROFL

I can just imagine completing my purchase on Ebay and having to Fedex the seller some camels. And for my trip to the supermarket, if I want a pack of gum, do you suppose I give the cashier a cow? What if the gum is worth less than 1 whole cow? Do I just chop off the hoof for the supermarket and then carry my dying, bleeding cow down to Macy's to buy some new shoes.

Great idea, Cathy. Laughat

Oh, P.S., since you seem to think the camels and cows were a better of medium of exchange than gold, do you know why, for thousands of years, nobody ever went back to livestock? Why'd they stick to gold for so long if a cow would do the job better?
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