The Benefits of the Fair Tax
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12-02-2014, 06:32 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(12-02-2014 06:24 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Its called fools gold because it resembles gold and without an alchemist, you do not know if the gold is real.

Remember...the ONE thing you demanded an example of in a "low tech society"

Please tell me what chemical substance you're referring to as "fool's gold". According to the dictionary, fool's gold was mostly iron or copper pyrites, both of which you don't need to be an alchemist to see that they're not gold.

If you REALLY can think of a substance that copied gold's qualities, please name it, and explain why people were dreaming of fantasy's to make gold (like a goose laying a golden egg) if there was really some substance they could make in their home that was indistinguishable from gold.
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12-02-2014, 06:32 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(12-02-2014 06:29 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(12-02-2014 06:08 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Camels, cows, and livestock were the FIRST forms of currency.

Remember, my challenge to you was to name one substance you thought would make a better medium of exchange to build a modern economy on. Just to confirm, that's your official answer? Camels and cows?

ROFL

I can just imagine completing my purchase on Ebay and having to Fedex the seller some camels. And for my trip to the supermarket, if I want a pack of gum, do you suppose I give the cashier a cow? What if the gum is worth less than 1 whole cow? Do I just chop off the hoof for the supermarket and then carry my dying, bleeding cow down to Macy's to buy some new shoes.

Great idea, Cathy. Laughat

Oh, P.S., since you seem to think the camels and cows were a better of medium of exchange than gold, do you know why, for thousands of years, nobody ever went back to livestock? Why'd they stick to gold for so long if a cow would do the job better?

Do you have a reading comprehension problem, Frank? I said camels and cows were the FIRST forms of money. Since you seem to think that Gold was the First. That was all to the point.

Money was only a product of what was considered valuable through social agreement, which is exactly what CJ was trying to tell you but you just don't understand....English.

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12-02-2014, 06:33 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
I'm done, Frank. Your stupidity burns my eyes.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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12-02-2014, 06:34 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(12-02-2014 06:13 PM)frankksj Wrote:  I mean that if I walk to the corner and hand a drug dealer a $100 bill for some drugs, and the cops bust him later, they have no way of knowing where that $100 bill came from. Whereas bitcoin is supposed to be anonymous, there's always a digital footprint on the internet. Therefore, the feds saying they're shutting down bitcoin because it can be used to buy drugs, and people instead should keep buying their illegal drugs with US dollar bills, is ridiculous.

I can see where you are coming from and I agree on a small scale. However I think the more you go up the chain of production and distribution with drugs then electronic transfers between accounts may be necessary as the amount of money changing hands grows.

I would say that parts of governments are involved in drug trafficking however I have nothing to back it up other than conjecture on a conspiracy basis.

(12-02-2014 06:13 PM)frankksj Wrote:  To prop it up the US has had to make sure oil is only traded in dollars and launch an attack against any oil producing country that tried accepting other currencies. These sanctions blocking countries from selling oil in other currencies has resulted in the deaths of millions of innocent people. It's creating huge inequality.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. (Qaddafis attempts at setting up the Gold Dinar spring to mind)

(12-02-2014 06:13 PM)frankksj Wrote:  While gold may not be perfect, civilizations were able to thrive and prosper for a thousand years on a gold standard, enjoying stable prices, so people could plan for their future, save, invest, and build. Whereas the fiat currencies have been 3,000 times and have a 100% record of failure, gold has been tried and has a 100% record of success. It's never failed. You can plop yourself in a time machine and go to any random spot in time in some random place, and if you have gold in your pocket, you'll be able to buy room and board with it.

So, if I had to pick between one currency with a 100% record of failure, and another with a 100% record of success, I'd choose the latter. The only reason we're stuck using US dollars is because the government forces us to at gunpoint.

I think times have changed though, society is completely different to what it was in the past. I can see why you would wish to try it again though going off history. I think to use a gold standard we would have to reset the value of everything.

I don't know what would be a close to perfect system as everything people have put forward is like a double edged sword, it can be good yet it also can be manipulated.

My views at the moment is the system is not what is at fault, it is us as humans and "our" greed that needs to change.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

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12-02-2014, 06:37 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(12-02-2014 05:54 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Gold Standard Made the Great Depression Worse

Look, I don't dispute that. Whenever you have fractional reserve banking, banks take on enormous risks, and as soon as account holders start asking for their money bank, it results in a bank run, then a panic as the banks' collapse and people stop engaging in commerce, and it leads to economic downturns.

Sure, having a fiat currency is one way to solve that because then the banks can take on all the risk they want, and no matter how upside down they get or how much they lose, there can be no bank run since they can just print however much money they need.

But you could also solve that problem by only offering government guarantees for banks that practiced full reserve banking. To me, that's a much better solution than letting the banks just print currency whenever they need it, which is effectively just stealthily confiscating wealth from all the innocent people who happen to be using said currency.
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12-02-2014, 06:40 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(12-02-2014 06:32 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Do you have a reading comprehension problem, Frank? I said camels and cows were the FIRST forms of money. Since you seem to think that Gold was the First.

I never said any such thing. Obviously all sorts of stuff was used as money before gold. Shells, rocks, all sorts of crap. But none of it lasted too long because they all lacked some key attributes to make a good medium of exchange. Once people discovered gold's unique qualities, it stuck, and has been the defacto global money on planet Earth for thousands of years.

The issue at hand is that both you and cjlr insist I'm stupid for suggesting gold is probably the best historic medium of exchange. So I will ask you again the question you keep running from:

What SPECIFIC substance do you think would make a better medium of exchange than gold?

Since that is the question before you, whatever answer you throw out, like cows and camels, I will critique to see how it compares to gold.
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12-02-2014, 06:46 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(12-02-2014 06:34 PM)bemore Wrote:  I think times have changed though, society is completely different to what it was in the past. I can see why you would wish to try it again though going off history. I think to use a gold standard we would have to reset the value of everything.

I don't know what would be a close to perfect system as everything people have put forward is like a double edged sword, it can be good yet it also can be manipulated.

My views at the moment is the system is not what is at fault, it is us as humans and "our" greed that needs to change.

We're in total agreement. I don't know what will be the next currency, and it would be hard to go back (again) to gold because the whole world (except for Switzerland) has devalued their currencies so much that you'd have to price gold at probably $10k/oz to return to a gold standard. That's what's been driving up the cost of gold, as people hedge bets that maybe it will happen. But I don't know.

What I do know is the current system cannot last. The Fed cannot keep printing trillions of dollars forever without the currency collapsing. And now that the debt is so high, if the Fed stops buying up the US's debt, so the US has to sell it on the open market for a normal interest rate, like 5%, the US won't be able to afford the interest on the debt and will default, unless the Fed starts printing money again. This is why it was supposed to be one round of QE, but has turned into indefinite QE, with no ability to stop. This is exactly what Friedman warned would happen. He said it's inevitable that at some point the temptation to turn on the printer will be too much to resist, and then there will be no going back until you get runaway inflation. Sure, it's not a fault of fiat currency, per se. I agree, it's greed. But it's inevitable that giving someone a currency printer and letting them print however much they want is going to lead to greedy people abusing it. The gold standard has problems too, but at least the money supply is controlled by factors men cannot control, and it's really hard to expand the gold supply by more than a couple percent a year.
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12-02-2014, 06:47 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(12-02-2014 06:37 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(12-02-2014 05:54 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Gold Standard Made the Great Depression Worse

Look, I don't dispute that. Whenever you have fractional reserve banking, banks take on enormous risks, and as soon as account holders start asking for their money bank, it results in a bank run, then a panic as the banks' collapse and people stop engaging in commerce, and it leads to economic downturns.

Sure, having a fiat currency is one way to solve that because then the banks can take on all the risk they want, and no matter how upside down they get or how much they lose, there can be no bank run since they can just print however much money they need.

But you could also solve that problem by only offering government guarantees for banks that practiced full reserve banking. To me, that's a much better solution than letting the banks just print currency whenever they need it, which is effectively just stealthily confiscating wealth from all the innocent people who happen to be using said currency.

So you failed to address the fact that you completely misquoted me, mischaracterized what I said, and have now moved the goal posts.

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12-02-2014, 06:51 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(12-02-2014 06:33 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  I'm done, Frank. Your stupidity burns my eyes.

You're done because you're backed into a corner with so many questions that you cannot answer without looking stupid. In the past hour alone I've challenged you:

1. Name this substance you call "fool's gold" that is indistinguishable from gold except to an alchemist. You can't, because it doesn't exist.

2. Name the substance you think is better than gold to use as a medium of exchange. You can't.

3. Name one of the 3,000 or so fiat currencies that didn't collapse within 50 years and leave a path of economic ruin and inequality in its wake. You can't, because you're defending a system that's been tried 3,000 times and has a perfect record of failure.
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12-02-2014, 07:03 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(12-02-2014 06:51 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(12-02-2014 06:33 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  I'm done, Frank. Your stupidity burns my eyes.

You're done because you're backed into a corner with so many questions that you cannot answer without looking stupid. In the past hour alone I've challenged you:

1. Name this substance you call "fool's gold" that is indistinguishable from gold except to an alchemist. You can't, because it doesn't exist.

2. Name the substance you think is better than gold to use as a medium of exchange. You can't.

3. Name one of the 3,000 or so fiat currencies that didn't collapse within 50 years and leave a path of economic ruin and inequality in its wake. You can't, because you're defending a system that's been tried 3,000 times and has a perfect record of failure.

I guess the news doesn't report on counterfeit gold? http://www.myfoxny.com/story/19578206/fa...-manhattan

My mistake

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