The Benefits of the Fair Tax
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13-02-2014, 03:58 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(13-02-2014 03:56 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(13-02-2014 03:15 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Once I provide the proof that your history and facts are all wrong, will that change your opinion? When you read, say, about the Pioneer Zephyr that was travelling at speeds up to 112mph, and yes, it was air conditioned, will you reconsider your ideology? Of course not. Your ideology is not based on the facts, so the facts can change, and your ideology will forever remain set in stone. You hunt for facts to support your ideology, but when the facts contradict it, you just ignore the facts.

Directly from the source you just cited (again, Wikipedia) "The Pioneer Zephyr is a diesel-powered railroad train formed of railroad cars permanently articulated together with Jacobs bogies, built by the Budd Company in 1934 for the Chicago, Burlington and Quincy Railroad (CB&Q), commonly known as the Burlington. "

1934. It's the new 1920s eh?

Why do you bother with Frank? He wouldn't know the truth if it came up and smacked him upside the head. Nearly everything he has ever said on this forum has been a lie and I have no reason to think he will ever do anything but.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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13-02-2014, 04:15 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(13-02-2014 03:56 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(13-02-2014 03:15 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Once I provide the proof that your history and facts are all wrong, will that change your opinion? When you read, say, about the Pioneer Zephyr that was travelling at speeds up to 112mph, and yes, it was air conditioned, will you reconsider your ideology? Of course not. Your ideology is not based on the facts, so the facts can change, and your ideology will forever remain set in stone. You hunt for facts to support your ideology, but when the facts contradict it, you just ignore the facts.

your source says nothing of air conditioning... Want some Ice for that burn?

Read and weap

There's the specs for the train. Got it. Air conditioning. This stuff takes 10 seconds to verify on Google. You must do ZERO fact checking before you go spouting off nonsense, and, as I predicted, when you learn that your facts are all wrong.... Nothing changes. Your ideology remains the same.
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13-02-2014, 04:23 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
Cathy, Cjlr,

Neither one of you will come out and state your opinion--the only opinions you put out there are ones you fabricate and assign to me. Like cjlr saying I'm obsessed with gold. I don't give a fuck about gold. I said repeatedly if he can come up with some better material to use as a medium of exchange, or some newer technology, like cryptography. Great.

ALL I've said repeatedly is, as always, as a liberterian I believe people should be allowed to exercise free will. I hate that the government points a gun to our head and forces us to trade our goods and services using those worthless pieces of paper. If the Fed wants to issue fiat currency. Fine. If you want to use it. Fine. I'd rather use liberty dollars, e-gold, Swiss francs. I'll let you use what you want, why can't I use what I want. I don't like a fiat currency because some bankers in a warehouse can, with the click of a mouse hit the 'print' button and effectively confiscate all my savings and my salary anytime they want. And I'm powerless to resist since they've got a gun pointed at my head forcing me to keep using that paper.

So, I've asked you guys repeatedly to state what YOU prefer as a medium of exchange:

1. A fiat currency, where the issuer can print as much of it as he wants, diluting the value of the savings and salaries of everybody who is forced to use it.

or

2. Some finite commodity that nobody can just arbitrarily make more of.

That's it. Pick #1 or #2. You keep attacking me for picking #2, but you REFUSE to come right out and voice support for #1 because you know the facts are that it's been tried 3,000 times, it has a 100% perfect record of failure, it's enabled most of the major wars, and even caused a good percent of them, governments kill millions of innocent people with sanctions to prop up the fiat currency, etc., etc.

So, either (a) come out and say "I favor fiat currency", or (b) say "I favor a commodity", and if the latter, just state what commodity you think would be the best choice.

Simple.
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13-02-2014, 04:42 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
I recommend that frank and cathy put eachother on their block lists for a while, until egos settle down. No-one cares about whether gold can be counterfeited, or what year a train had air conditioning, or whether June 2014 counts as 100 years ago or not, or whether 1930 is technically still the 1920s. You two are derailing every thread you touch with your endless pissing contest.

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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13-02-2014, 07:31 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(13-02-2014 04:15 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(13-02-2014 03:56 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  your source says nothing of air conditioning... Want some Ice for that burn?

Read and weap

There's the specs for the train. Got it. Air conditioning. This stuff takes 10 seconds to verify on Google. You must do ZERO fact checking before you go spouting off nonsense, and, as I predicted, when you learn that your facts are all wrong.... Nothing changes. Your ideology remains the same.

I can't view the link

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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13-02-2014, 07:32 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(13-02-2014 04:42 PM)toadaly Wrote:  I recommend that frank and cathy put eachother on their block lists for a while, until egos settle down. No-one cares about whether gold can be counterfeited, or what year a train had air conditioning, or whether June 2014 counts as 100 years ago or not, or whether 1930 is technically still the 1920s. You two are derailing every thread you touch with your endless pissing contest.

I recommend you myob

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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13-02-2014, 07:33 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(13-02-2014 03:58 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(13-02-2014 03:56 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Directly from the source you just cited (again, Wikipedia) "The Pioneer Zephyr is a diesel-powered railroad train formed of railroad cars permanently articulated together with Jacobs bogies, built by the Budd Company in 1934 for the Chicago, Burlington and Quincy Railroad (CB&Q), commonly known as the Burlington. "

1934. It's the new 1920s eh?

Why do you bother with Frank? He wouldn't know the truth if it came up and smacked him upside the head. Nearly everything he has ever said on this forum has been a lie and I have no reason to think he will ever do anything but.

He is the scab I can't stop picking at

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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13-02-2014, 07:49 PM (This post was last modified: 13-02-2014 08:09 PM by frankksj.)
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(13-02-2014 07:32 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  You two are derailing every thread you touch with your endless pissing contest.

(13-02-2014 07:32 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  I recommend you myob

Toadaly, imo you're right. We hijacked the discussion bickering about something off-top. Sorry. I won't do it again. Smile

Back to the flat tax...

1. I still think the BEST solution is a property tax. It's a voluntary tax, impossible to avoid so there's no need for police and guns to enforce it, doesn't require invading your privacy. It can be as progressive as the community wants. Since it's a local tax, the counties compete vigorously to provide the best service for the best price, as shown by the fact that property tax is a relatively small tax, compared to income tax, BUT, all the government services we get of any value (roads, police, fire, schools, streets, etc.) are paid for with property taxes. Also, since taxing anything discourages it, the best thing for society is to discourage is dumping all your money in "stuff", and encourage investing it in productive means that create jobs.

2. The second best, imo, is a consumption tax (sales tax, VAT). It has some challenges, like making sure it doesn't overly burden the poor, though that can be addressed by not taxing basic necessities. The need for enforcement is less than an income tax since only businesses need auditing. And there's still no need for big brother listening in. Plus, you can skew the tax to discourage consumption of stuff that's bad society (gas, drugs, alcohol, etc.).

3. The flat income tax. I don't like it because this implies the government owns our hands and minds and we have to hand over all the fruits of our labor and let them decide what they'll keep. It also discourages working hard, and encourages expatriation and moving assets offshore. It generally requires heavy-handed enforcement. But, at least it's more simple and fair than the current income tax system.

4. The worst of all, imo, is the current income tax system with millions of pages of tax code, loopholes, etc. It has all the negatives of the flat tax, but it's really unfair. The rich and big corporations spend mountains of money on lobbyists getting so many loopholes that they pay almost nothing. The administrative costs are such a nightmare compared to the flat tax that even if you're willing to pay the tax, you'll still very motivated to expatriate because it's such a burden. And then as people expatriate in droves (as happened in the US in the 1990's), the government has to build effective Berlin Walls to imprison their population and prevent their escape, like the 1996 HIPAA law which had embedded in it draconian penalties for American expats, and even imposed a 10 year waiting period for wealthy people who simply want to move abroad. The only people who benefit from this are those rich enough to afford lobbyists to get their loopholes written into the tax code.
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14-02-2014, 07:37 AM (This post was last modified: 14-02-2014 08:15 AM by wazzel.)
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
1. Property tax is not voluntary. You have to live somewhere and even renters pay property tax. It is just rolled up in the rent payments along with insurance and other things the land lord has to cover. Just because they do not see it does not meant they are not paying it. Edit - This is old data, but apparently the tax burden for renters is higher than home owners, again putting more burden on lower wage earners since they can not afford to purchase a home. http://www.nmhc.org/Newsletter.cfm?ItemNumber=54914

2. Consumption taxes increase the tax burden for lower income and decreases it for higher earners, very regressive.

3. Not entierlty sure how I feel about this one. It sounds good and fair, but I think to make it happen the flat tax would be more than the lower tax brackes and negatively impact a large portion of the workers. I do not see where it discourages work. Most people would rather have what is left after taxes than all of nothing.

4. I don't think the idea of what we do now if the worst, we just implament it really poorly. Remove all the loop holes, exceptions and deduction combined with lowering the rates and it would not be a bad system.

Just my opinions
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14-02-2014, 09:45 AM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(14-02-2014 07:37 AM)wazzel Wrote:  1. Property tax is not voluntary. You have to live somewhere and even renters pay property tax. It is just rolled up in the rent payments along with insurance and other things the land lord has to cover. Just because they do not see it does not meant they are not paying it. Edit - This is old data, but apparently the tax burden for renters is higher than home owners, again putting more burden on lower wage earners since they can not afford to purchase a home. http://www.nmhc.org/Newsletter.cfm?ItemNumber=54914

User fees are the only voluntary taxes. But when you consider that the state is what makes the orderly ownership of property possible, that tax is justifiable. If there were no state to do this, individuals would have to either do it themselves at generally significant expense, or pay a third party to do it for them. To expect this benefit from the state, at no cost, is to expect a free lunch. That said, property taxes can certainly be abusive, like any tax can be.

Quote:2. Consumption taxes increase the tax burden for lower income and decreases it for higher earners, very regressive.

Not necessarily. It depends on how they are implemented. The governments analysis of the Fair Tax, for example, shows that the poor would be the greatest beneficiaries. I'm not a proponent of the Fair Tax, because I think the 'prebate' is a stupid idea, but it does at least demonstrate the feasibility of a progressive consumption tax. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NRST-percentile.png

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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