The Benefits of the Fair Tax
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10-02-2014, 09:31 AM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(10-02-2014 07:33 AM)wazzel Wrote:  However the government decided to collect the money to operate we are going to pay it. No way to get around that. Best we can hope for is they keep it as low as possible and distrubute the burden fairly. Since fair is subjective probably never going to find a taxing plan that everyone will like.

What people forget is that the current system where there's lots of small taxes instead of 1 big one is good for the government, but screws the taxpayer. Say you make $60k/year, and you're going to pay around $20k/year in taxes. Imagine you get ONE bill each year, say, tied to your property tax, that lists ALL the services the government is providing and what you will be paying for them: roads: $3,200, public schools: $850, police: $400, military: $8,200, interest on the debt: $2,200, etc., etc., with a monthly payment plan, of course.

People would realize what they're REALLY paying for this stuff and demand they get a better value.

To avoid that, the government tries to hide the real cost. Some of the tax is paid by the employer, some deducted from your paycheck, then there's a property tax bill, and every time you make a purchase sales tax, and gas tax, and as prices go up, an inflation tax, when you die an estate tax, surcharges built into your phone bills, airline tickets, hotels, and so on. So people don't realize how much they're actually paying, and how little they're actually getting for it. The government will tell you that it's for your own good, so you don't get stuck with one huge bill. But that's bullshit. You're paying for it anyway, you have a right to know how much it's costing. Imagine if your mobile phone bill was like that, where you never got 1 bill, but rather just paid a few dollars every day here and there tacked on to all your activities, so that nobody even knows what their phone service costs anymore? Does anybody doubt that with such a system we'd pay MUCH, MUCH more for phone service than we do now? Who would benefit from that system: the phone company, or the consumer? Of course, the phone company would say the system benefited the consumer by protecting you from one massive phone bill. But that's nonsense. If you're paying anyway, you have a right to know clearly how much you're paying and what you're getting for it.
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10-02-2014, 09:58 AM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
Changing the way taxes are collected is not going to significantly change the amount people pay.

Personally I am not a big fan of reoccuring property taxes. The whole idea of having to pay a tax every year on something you own seems not right to me. I do not have any issues with an income or sales based system or some combination of the two.
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10-02-2014, 10:14 AM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
To me, taxes on wages seem like a form of slavery or indentured servitude. I'm ok with taxes on profits resulting from limited liability operations, or from banking, government granted monopolies, and other enterprises rooted in special legal exemptions and privileges.

Although I don't care much for property taxes, I think there is a philosophical justification for them - making them 'fair' from my perspective.

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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10-02-2014, 10:34 AM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(10-02-2014 09:58 AM)wazzel Wrote:  Changing the way taxes are collected is not going to significantly change the amount people pay.

I disagree. I live in Switzerland, a country with no natural resources, and all government services are paid for through taxes. Here, you get more and better government services even than Sweden, but the taxes are less than half. Living here, it IS purely because of the way the taxes are collected. They're all done at the local level, so the local jurisdictions compete vigorously to lure residents and business. Further, some residents can choose if they want to pay income tax, or, a flat tax which is effectively a property tax.

(10-02-2014 09:58 AM)wazzel Wrote:  Personally I am not a big fan of reoccuring property taxes. The whole idea of having to pay a tax every year on something you own seems not right to me. I do not have any issues with an income or sales based system or some combination of the two.

Can you clarify? If you have property, you need government services to protect your property. They register your ownership and give you a title, they remove unlawful trespassers, and provide a judicial system in case someone damages your property. They provide law enforcement, fire, etc., So, a property tax is a voluntary payment for services rendered, just like, say, going to the dentist. If the property taxes are too high in one city, you can shop around.

With income tax, however, there is no payment for services. Even if you earn your income outside your home country, and your country provides no services, you STILL pay. This means the government owns you--owns the fruits of your labor, owns your mind, and whatever you produce with your hands, your skills, or your brain, must be surrendered to your "master", who will decide how much they will keep for themselves and what they'll let you keep. That fits the technical definition of slavery, especially in the 3 countries that do not allow citizens to expatriate and escape the tax regime (N. Korea, Cuba and the US). France and Denmark have also both voiced support for adopting the same system to block expatriation. Francois Hollande argued that he should be able to impose a 99% tax which must apply to Gérard Depardieu for life regardless of whether he ever resides in France again or not.

I think you're so used to the current system you're not looking at it objectively. Just ask yourself how you'd feel if a private corporation used that system. Would it be moral if, say, AT&T could demand that no matter where you live in the world and whether or not you use AT&T services, you must surrender all the fruits of labors to AT&T and they will decide what they will keep for themselves and what to leave for you to live off of.
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10-02-2014, 10:56 AM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(10-02-2014 08:27 AM)mrlmichael Wrote:  Banks use inflation to lend out money, simple as that.

Source/link?

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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10-02-2014, 11:03 AM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(10-02-2014 10:56 AM)bemore Wrote:  
(10-02-2014 08:27 AM)mrlmichael Wrote:  Banks use inflation to lend out money, simple as that.

Source/link?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_easing

The Fed inflates the money supply (ie dumps boatloads of cash on the banks) in hopes they'll lend more.
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10-02-2014, 11:14 AM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(10-02-2014 11:03 AM)frankksj Wrote:  
(10-02-2014 10:56 AM)bemore Wrote:  Source/link?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_easing

The Fed inflates the money supply (ie dumps boatloads of cash on the banks) in hopes they'll lend more.

Carlos stated (indirectly) that banks lend out other depositors money. This is a myth. QE is not an answer to how banks lend out money from inflation. If you believe it is then where did the money for loans and the expansion of the monetary supply come from before quantitative easing.

If you went to a bank and asked for £10,000 (or dollars or whatever) then where does that money come from?

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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10-02-2014, 11:24 AM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
Banks create money to lend. In the US, they are allowed to lend out $10 for every $1 they have on deposit. This is a legal monopoly granted by the federal government. It works the same way in most other nations as well, although the fractional reserve requirement is different from nation to nation.

Since they are lending created money, it causes inflation during boom times, and deflation during bust times. But it's the boom times when they are inflating, when they make all their profit.

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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10-02-2014, 11:28 AM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(10-02-2014 11:24 AM)toadaly Wrote:  Banks create money to lend.

Bingo.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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10-02-2014, 12:43 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
That was pretty well covered for me by toadaly. The money banks lend you is not money they actually have on hand, only 10% of it is. This causes an expansion in the money supply.
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