The Benefits of the Fair Tax
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10-02-2014, 01:04 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
Pfffff, everytime someone suggests an alternative taxation, someone else comes along and says it's unfair for the poor or too lenient on the rich.
But only comparing it to the system that is currently in place.

One fixed percentage is the only fair system. Whether you make a thousand or a million, everyone contributes equally.

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10-02-2014, 01:07 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(10-02-2014 10:34 AM)frankksj Wrote:  
(10-02-2014 09:58 AM)wazzel Wrote:  Changing the way taxes are collected is not going to significantly change the amount people pay.

I disagree. I live in Switzerland, a country with no natural resources, and all government services are paid for through taxes. Here, you get more and better government services even than Sweden, but the taxes are less than half. Living here, it IS purely because of the way the taxes are collected. They're all done at the local level, so the local jurisdictions compete vigorously to lure residents and business. Further, some residents can choose if they want to pay income tax, or, a flat tax which is effectively a property tax.

(10-02-2014 09:58 AM)wazzel Wrote:  Personally I am not a big fan of reoccuring property taxes. The whole idea of having to pay a tax every year on something you own seems not right to me. I do not have any issues with an income or sales based system or some combination of the two.

Can you clarify? If you have property, you need government services to protect your property. They register your ownership and give you a title, they remove unlawful trespassers, and provide a judicial system in case someone damages your property. They provide law enforcement, fire, etc., So, a property tax is a voluntary payment for services rendered, just like, say, going to the dentist. If the property taxes are too high in one city, you can shop around.

With income tax, however, there is no payment for services. Even if you earn your income outside your home country, and your country provides no services, you STILL pay. This means the government owns you--owns the fruits of your labor, owns your mind, and whatever you produce with your hands, your skills, or your brain, must be surrendered to your "master", who will decide how much they will keep for themselves and what they'll let you keep. That fits the technical definition of slavery, especially in the 3 countries that do not allow citizens to expatriate and escape the tax regime (N. Korea, Cuba and the US). France and Denmark have also both voiced support for adopting the same system to block expatriation. Francois Hollande argued that he should be able to impose a 99% tax which must apply to GĂ©rard Depardieu for life regardless of whether he ever resides in France again or not.

I think you're so used to the current system you're not looking at it objectively. Just ask yourself how you'd feel if a private corporation used that system. Would it be moral if, say, AT&T could demand that no matter where you live in the world and whether or not you use AT&T services, you must surrender all the fruits of labors to AT&T and they will decide what they will keep for themselves and what to leave for you to live off of.

Given Switzerlands size and population you have a hard time conviencening me that type of system work work here. From what I understand of the Swiss tax system it sounds alot like what goes on at the state level here.
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10-02-2014, 01:09 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(10-02-2014 01:04 PM)Caveman Wrote:  Pfffff, everytime someone suggests an alternative taxation, someone else comes along and says it's unfair for the poor or too lenient on the rich.
But only comparing it to the system that is currently in place.

One fixed percentage is the only fair system. Whether you make a thousand or a million, everyone contributes equally.

It is all dependant on what a person considers fair. It's subjective so the debate rolls on, and on...........
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10-02-2014, 01:30 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(10-02-2014 01:07 PM)wazzel Wrote:  Given Switzerlands size and population you have a hard time conviencening me that type of system work work here. From what I understand of the Swiss tax system it sounds alot like what goes on at the state level here.

When you consider that most of the services citizens care about - police, fire, local roadways, schools, are provided locally via state and local taxes, it's hard to see why it wouldn't work.

Other than the military, the federal government in the US primarily just redistributes wealth, which could certainly be done at the state level to the extent states wanted to do that. Even the military is, IMHO, more of a 'jobs' social program than it is about national defense.

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10-02-2014, 01:54 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
Like I said, the United States went, up until the last 100 years without a federal income tax and the states and local governments provided all of the services most desire, to start a conversation about taxes under the assumption that a federal tax system is completely needed, in my mind, is an unfounded assumption.
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10-02-2014, 02:15 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(07-02-2014 02:59 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  I have to say, I'm becoming a proponent for this form of taxation.

For those who don't know, the Fair Tax is the abolishment of the existing Federal Income Tax and replacing it with a Federal sales tax on all purchased goods and services.
...
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Disproportionally impacts the lower class because it fails to consider the principle of diminishing returns. That extra dollar for a loaf of bread don't mean dick to Mitt Romney. Means a lot more to someone just trying to make ends meet. A progressive tax rate is the only fair system in that it is the only one which considers the law of diminishing returns.

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10-02-2014, 02:29 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(10-02-2014 02:15 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Disproportionally impacts the lower class because it fails to consider the principle of diminishing returns. That extra dollar for a loaf of bread don't mean dick to Mitt Romney. Means a lot more to someone just trying to make ends meet. A progressive tax rate is the only fair system in that it is the only one which considers the law of diminishing returns.

The 'Fair Tax' has a prebate built-in to work around that. To me, that's a gimmicky dumb way of trying to solve the problem. Instead, basic necessities should be taxed at a low rate - probably zero for items like milk, bread and thrift store clothing.

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10-02-2014, 02:38 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(10-02-2014 01:54 PM)mrlmichael Wrote:  Like I said, the United States went, up until the last 100 years without a federal income tax and the states and local governments provided all of the services most desire, to start a conversation about taxes under the assumption that a federal tax system is completely needed, in my mind, is an unfounded assumption.

Not entirely true. The federal government did collect taxes prior to the perminant establisment of income tax in 1913. Income tax was collected during the civil war but was abolished after the war debt was settled. Until 1913 the main source of federal tax income was through tariffs.

As long as the federal government provides services they need to fund those services and taxes will be collected. If all services were provided by the states or local government we could do a local only tax system.
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10-02-2014, 02:47 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(10-02-2014 02:29 PM)toadaly Wrote:  
(10-02-2014 02:15 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Disproportionally impacts the lower class because it fails to consider the principle of diminishing returns. That extra dollar for a loaf of bread don't mean dick to Mitt Romney. Means a lot more to someone just trying to make ends meet. A progressive tax rate is the only fair system in that it is the only one which considers the law of diminishing returns.

The 'Fair Tax' has a prebate built-in to work around that. To me, that's a gimmicky dumb way of trying to solve the problem. Instead, basic necessities should be taxed at a low rate - probably zero for items like milk, bread and thrift store clothing.

I do not like the probate either. From what I remember the numbers for a national sales tax would be 15 to 20 percent to stay revenue neutral. It would suddenly be hard for lots of people to get by when good as services get 15 to 20 percent more expensive. For a large portion of the population that would be an increase in tax burden. That is approx 40% of all workers who are in the 15% or less tax brackets, not to mention the people that are just getting into the 25% tax bracket who's average tax rate is less than 20%.
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10-02-2014, 02:54 PM
RE: The Benefits of the Fair Tax
(10-02-2014 01:30 PM)toadaly Wrote:  
(10-02-2014 01:07 PM)wazzel Wrote:  Given Switzerlands size and population you have a hard time conviencening me that type of system work work here. From what I understand of the Swiss tax system it sounds alot like what goes on at the state level here.

When you consider that most of the services citizens care about - police, fire, local roadways, schools, are provided locally via state and local taxes, it's hard to see why it wouldn't work.

Other than the military, the federal government in the US primarily just redistributes wealth, which could certainly be done at the state level to the extent states wanted to do that. Even the military is, IMHO, more of a 'jobs' social program than it is about national defense.

Well we do have a federal system, not a confederaton of states system. Not argueing your points, but there was a war that settled that question of who was in charge.
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