The Bible - not 100% literal
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03-01-2012, 12:31 PM
RE: The Bible - not 100% literal
I'm not going to read the whole thread and it's probably been asked already but why do you, KC, feel like you somehow know which stories are meant to be taken literally and which are figurative?

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03-01-2012, 12:35 PM
RE: The Bible - not 100% literal
(03-01-2012 11:55 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(31-12-2011 09:03 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  You've made a value judgement because you don't like the stuff that's in it. But the Bible itself does not purport to be a book that YOU get to decide what is literal and what it not. Once you have to start rationalizing and explaining the book, you have diminished the Almighty by taking over for God to explain who he REALLY is because he's not the god we see in the bible and he didn't mean to say what's written, but if you do enough mental masturbation, you'll figure it out.

As to Revelation, just saying it's a whack book doesn't get you off the hook for the fact that it is there and to the original readers it meant something real and palatable as diatribe against the Roman Empire. The fact that people have twisted it over the centuries to "prove" their own agenda shows how unreliable this jumble of writings is, and if it's unreliable, why would a "reliable" god choose to use it to communicate? I'd think a truly loving being would want people to understand what he really means instead of every person who reads it having their own opinion.

Not really. I have simply taken a theological stance that other theologians have taken. EC and amillennialism are popular views amongst theologians. They aren't shared by majority because of tradition and lack of knowledge and indoctrination. Pre-trib and dispensationalism has only been around for 200 years... for whatever reason, it caught on with the Protestant church.

I never said Revelation was "whack". All I said was that Revelation isn't written like other books and has to be interpreted differently while considering the numerology, symbolism, and prophetic language. Revelation cannot be taken literally, in fact, amillennialism is the most consistent eschatological point of view. Dispensationalism takes parts of Revelation in both the literal and symbolic sense.

Quote:No, I'm not really going to let you off the hook for saying the Bible is not meant to be read 100% literally, because I can find plenty of Christians who would 100% disagree with you.

And, I can promise you that 95% of those haven't read or studied the Bible and only know what they've been taught to regurgitate in church. They are ignorant on their own belief system and choose to remain ignorant. Ignorance doesn't make you right.


(31-12-2011 09:24 AM)Jackrabbit Wrote:  i just had a chat yesterday with a muslim friend of mine who like you looks at the scriptures and takes away only the good, the rest is metaphor or context or interpretation.
he has the same conviction that you have towards islam and when i picked his brain about it, i figured out, though he wont admit that it all stems out of want of an afterlife.
to believe that there is something that transcends his existence after earth. When i talk to him about the quraan stating that the earth is flat he just goes "maybe he wasnt comparing the earth to a carpet in terms of flatness but something else" and when i present him with the facts of evolution its not good enough for him as he replies "well we dont know exactly how god made adam and eve on earth". He also takes pride in the fact that the quraan linguistically is very vague which can make its sayings bend to agree with newfound evidence and says if it was crystal clear then "there would be no point in faith and everyone would just believe". The fact is you cant fit a square peg in a round hole.
I say that if you look at the quraan or bible even metaphorically (all of it) it doesnt have anything new it could teach us that we didnt already know, stealing is bad etc.
What is the metaphorical value of adam and eve if so and other biblical stories? even if you cant differentiate between wrong and right ill still punish you?
What if you live a good life without being a christian or a muslim? will you still burn for eternity (being flayed every day in hell and repaired the next so it can be done again in the quraan version) isnt that a little unfair of god? an infinite punishment for someone doing a finite crime (the number of people he killed) is infinitly unjust.
however if the quraan or bible stated that everyone will live through the recieving end of his crimes as punishment(getting killed the number and manner of times u killed people and experienceing the same horror) then go on afterwards to live on an eternal plane with kittens and unicorns id lend it a bit more credibility that Yahweh or Allah has a sense of justice (as a character).

I never said Adam and Eve was a metaphor. It is a story to explain origins.

Also, God chooses people for salvation, so that question is moot to my theology.

Im sorry, you havent answered to my refutations, i didnt stop at adam and eve was a metaphor.

I am really asking for justification for your beliefs.
For one, what is the criterion on which you choose which verses to be taken literally and which verses not? common sense? you're half way out the door if so.
furthermore, if you can get yourself to believe that the universe was created, you have your work cut out for you. how do you get from the universe needs a creator to he sent his only son, born of a virgin to die for your sins.
And how can a just god be infinitly unjust? like i mentioned above.
and how can an otherwise decent person who hasnt accepted christ, or allah or krishna go to hell just for not going against his common sense?

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03-01-2012, 01:19 PM
 
RE: The Bible - not 100% literal
(31-12-2011 03:06 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  ****This is an explanation as to why I, a Christian, do not believe in a 100% literal Bible****

The Bible is not meant to be read 100% literally. Yep, I said it. There are many factors that have to be considered when reading and interpreting the Bible: context, audience, translation, history, symbolism, metaphors, numerology, poetic language, story language.

This is the next EVOLUTION in Christianity. Its gotten away from what god said, cuz its terribly immoral and cruel, and turned into some "Hare' Krishna feel goodery around the campfire" cult , at best. I have a buddy doing this same dance. I was touched by Jesus.....and i cant explain it..but the book...well i just don't read it. Well, i was touched by Roger Waters in Houston when he performed the WALL and i wept and was changed. So what does that make me?

The new chrisitans are quick to bark out about morals and what is right, but have NOTHING to base it on..other than their OWN evolved sense of what is right and wrong...and blame 'JC & The Sunshine band' for morals.

I've been reading the bible again recently looking for moral code. I found genesis to be a huge eye opener for me (now that i am reading with my veil lifted from years of indoctrination). Morals and Ethics seem astonishingly absent from the very beginning. HUNDREDS of years go by before any real substance of morals even appear.

If JC makes you safe and feel secure for what ever emptiness life has dealt you, than that rocks. Even better, if it keeps people from drinking and driving (as many of my Xtian pals have done) then great. If you require some 'feeling' to keep your ass in line, so be it.......but not all of us were short changed on the 'personal responsibility' end of the food chain. I am SO looking forward to spring and all the knocks on the doors it brings...as i feel i am gonna start showing folks EXACTLY whats in the good book....which, i am sure, will turn them into what KC has become...a Christian that buys 50% of the supposed Christian story.

D
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03-01-2012, 01:22 PM
RE: The Bible - not 100% literal
(03-01-2012 01:19 PM)Denicio Wrote:  
(31-12-2011 03:06 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  ****This is an explanation as to why I, a Christian, do not believe in a 100% literal Bible****

The Bible is not meant to be read 100% literally. Yep, I said it. There are many factors that have to be considered when reading and interpreting the Bible: context, audience, translation, history, symbolism, metaphors, numerology, poetic language, story language.

This is the next EVOLUTION in Christianity. Its gotten away from what god said, cuz its terribly immoral and cruel, and turned into some "Hare' Krishna feel goodery around the campfire" cult , at best. I have a buddy doing this same dance. I was touched by Jesus.....and i cant explain it..but the book...well i just don't read it. Well, i was touched by Roger Waters in Houston when he performed the WALL and i wept and was changed. So what does that make me?

The new chrisitans are quick to bark out about morals and what is right, but have NOTHING to base it on..other than their OWN evolved sense of what is right and wrong...and blame 'JC & The Sunshine band' for morals.

I've been reading the bible again recently looking for moral code. I found genesis to be a huge eye opener for me (now that i am reading with my veil lifted from years of indoctrination). Morals and Ethics seem astonishingly absent from the very beginning. HUNDREDS of years go by before any real substance of morals even appear.

If JC makes you safe and feel secure for what ever emptiness life has dealt you, than that rocks. Even better, if it keeps people from drinking and driving (as many of my Xtian pals have done) then great. If you require some 'feeling' to keep your ass in line, so be it.......but not all of us were short changed on the 'personal responsibility' end of the food chain. I am SO looking forward to spring and all the knocks on the doors it brings...as i feel i am gonna start showing folks EXACTLY whats in the good book....which, i am sure, will turn them into what KC has become...a Christian that buys 50% of the supposed Christian story.

D

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03-01-2012, 01:47 PM
RE: The Bible - not 100% literal
Thing abour religion is that it keeps retreating.
Fun fact: the Adam and Eve stroy was plagerised from the polytheistic babylonian Creation story also adam and eve when the isrealites were conquered by the babelonians.

Religion is what is wrong with the world KC, its inconsistent, apoligists keep dancing and its whole purpose is to erect divisive barriers between societies. God is like the local mob boss who causes a ruckus and makes you pay protection money. "thats a pretty nice soul you have there, wouldnt want anything bad to happen to it, tell you what you believe that my son is the lord and saviour and follow his rules and were okay, okay buddy boy?"
SO WHAT if you dont believe in god? you burn in hell for eternity, why? because u didnt accept JC, does that make me a bad person? uhmmm...
The bible and the quraan are self contradictory, inconsistent, immoral, full of fairytales and myth.
Faith, belief without evidence A.K.A guillibility, God reveals himself to those who believe, so do aliens, bigfoot, nessie, gwynnie, mohamed, zeus, krishna, boogie man, santa, and the list goes on and on my friend. It's the brains reaction when you adopt a belief you attribute everything to it, from the scary sounds you hear in your bedroom at night to miracles, visions, revelations, alien abduction dreams, Near death experiences etc. Many muslims both reliatives and random people on tv say that mohammed has revealed himself to them as the one true prophet in dreams and meditation or eppiphanies, It is delusion by definition, like a mirage in the desert (i see my share of them here in egypt) u are convinced its water but its just sand playing light tricks, its not water, nor sand demons nor Djins. Sometimes reality is just reality and you have to move on.
sometimes sand is just sand.

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03-01-2012, 03:14 PM
RE: The Bible - not 100% literal
I will get to every question. Please be patient with me.

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03-01-2012, 03:24 PM
RE: The Bible - not 100% literal
(03-01-2012 03:14 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I will get to every question. Please be patient with me.

Must be all that hard work I hear you doing. Big Grin

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03-01-2012, 03:41 PM
RE: The Bible - not 100% literal
(03-01-2012 03:24 PM)germanyt Wrote:  
(03-01-2012 03:14 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I will get to every question. Please be patient with me.

Must be all that hard work I hear you doing. Big Grin

lol shut up. Go look at my schedule for tomorrow.

Anyway...

(31-12-2011 10:32 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  I'm sure I could write it, even if I couldn't understand it, if my hand were guided by a deity.

This is the problem with understanding what “inspired” means. “Inspired” does not mean “factually and scientifically correct”. For some reason, I’m not articulating or conveying this point efficiently, so I apologize.

There are stories in the Bible that are inspired by God in order to teach a lesson – like Jesus did with parables; as I’ve said. The facts, events, and science aren’t important because that’s not what they’re about. The inspired stories are meant as a teaching tool; a way for the person to understand the message God is conveying. The creation story’s message isn’t about creation; it’s about God’s covenant that He’s made with humanity. The story is there as a way people could understand the magnificence and vastness of God and as a way things came about.

Science and chronology shouldn’t be read into the Genesis creation account because it’s not a piece of scientific literature.

Quote:I'm sure there are things God could've told people that would've made more sense than what He used. For instance, He could've told people how to cook pig & shellfish properly (assuming that was His problem with it) because they had the technology to do it - you can cook the trichinosis and tapeworms out of a pig over an open fire, given a proper time, especially if you know what you're looking for. And we can explain germs to kids, even if they don't have a full and complete understanding that allows them to go on to destroy germs. Just telling kids about germs helps them to be properly hygienic, though.

I completely agree; however, these were the purity laws set up by God in order to separate His people from everyone else. I don’t have an explanation for the “why” of the purity laws, though. But, I suppose, the argument could be made that abstinence is the best form of prevention.

Quote:But there are plenty of parts in the bible which clearly aren't metaphorical, such as "thou shalt not permit a witch to live". That's a pretty clear order to kill witches. It was taken literally throughout the middle ages and would still probably be carried out if murder wasn't against the law. There's no "lesson to be learned for a better life" when we're ordered to kill someone based on their belief system. I hear these vague attempts to justify the bible by looking at it as stories, but there are plenty of specific passages that teach people bad morals. A better writer could've written better morals. In fact, a perfect writer could write actual true stories that show the true consequences of not following the prescribed morals. How hard would that be, with thousands of years worth of human lives lived and omnipotence to be able to know and search through every relevant story?

I agree that this is a literal part of the Bible. It was written literally as a command to the Jews. The argument here is that God didn’t want any corruption and would not tolerate any corruption within the Jewish culture. As I’ve said numerous times, I don’t know why God has damned people and brought about their deaths, but I trust that is part of His ultimate plan. I have never shied away from the fact that “I don’t know”.

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03-01-2012, 04:41 PM
RE: The Bible - not 100% literal
assuming witches are real and not as made up as god himself.
and what happened to thou shalt not kill, and should anybody be put to death/burned at the stake for an unprovable crime?
how can you prove someones a witch?
and.. you personally KC, would you kill a witch?

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03-01-2012, 04:45 PM
RE: The Bible - not 100% literal
(03-01-2012 03:41 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  lol shut up. Go look at my schedule for tomorrow.

LOL. Fuck, I can't wait to quit this job.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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