The Bible ok'ing abortion????
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14-07-2014, 11:04 AM
RE: The Bible ok'ing abortion????
(12-07-2014 09:44 AM)theophilus Wrote:  The Bible prohibits murder and abortion is simply murder in which the victim is still in his mother's womb.
(12-07-2014 09:44 AM)theophilus Wrote:  The reason murder is a sin is that it is a usurpation of God's authority and so is a rebellion against him.
So in other words, you're ok with murder as long as gawd does it. Dodgy

You know, it's funny, for some reason I was under the apparently mistaken belief that one should not murder because it's immoral, not just because it would be usurping gawd's authority. Consider

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14-07-2014, 11:21 AM
RE: The Bible ok'ing abortion????
(14-07-2014 11:04 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(12-07-2014 09:44 AM)theophilus Wrote:  The Bible prohibits murder and abortion is simply murder in which the victim is still in his mother's womb.
(12-07-2014 09:44 AM)theophilus Wrote:  The reason murder is a sin is that it is a usurpation of God's authority and so is a rebellion against him.
So in other words, you're ok with murder as long as gawd does it. Dodgy

You know, it's funny, for some reason I was under the apparently mistaken belief that one should not murder because it's immoral, not just because it would be usurping gawd's authority. Consider

Biblical Morality is immoral. It places no value on human life or dignity and instead puts as it's highest priority pleasing an insane war god from a bronze age desert tribe.

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14-07-2014, 12:19 PM
RE: The Bible ok'ing abortion????
(14-07-2014 11:21 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Biblical Morality is immoral. It places no value on human life or dignity and instead puts as it's highest priority pleasing an insane war god from a bronze age desert tribe.
Yeah. Biblical morality is an oxymoron.

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14-07-2014, 12:50 PM
RE: The Bible ok'ing abortion????
(11-07-2014 02:45 PM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  So the topic of abortion in the U.S. has been a very popular one especially as of late. Me personally I agree with it being up to the person because every situation is different(i.e. rape, threatens the life of the baby, mother, or both). Usually when I bring up this most people who disagree with it turn to religious reason to why they don't think it's right. I've yet to have one of them quote the exact verse or even the book it's in exactly but they all swear it's against God's will.

So currently as some of you know I'm reading the bible beginning to end again and writing a paper on each book pointing out inconsistencies and such. I'm currently on the book, Numbers. Here's an excerpt where abortion is referenced:

Numbers 5: 11-31

11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”

23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial[c] offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

29 “‘This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and makes herself impure while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the Lord and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.’”


In past arguments about this I always asked where does God say abortion is bad(which I've never found) but the entire time there's a passage giving instructions on how to make a woman miscarry? Laugh out load I cannot wait until the next time someone brings up how it's a sin against God to just throw that in their face...although they'll back-peddle like they always do though.

In all seriousness though there are a few things I have to question here. First, Just a concoction of holy water and dirty will cause a miscarriage? Huh Secondly, If this mix does cause miscarriages the glory of your God stops the child being killed if the husband is the father of said child?

Playing the devil's advocate:

The original Hebrew in Num. 5: 21, 22 and 27 actually says: bə·mê·‘a·yiḵ laṣ-bōt be-ṭen wə-lan-pil yā-rêḵ; i.e. "to swell your belly and to rot (your) thigh." It does not say "your womb to miscarry". It is translated so in the NIV (not the 1984 version), but not in other versions which have the correct translation.

"Be-ten" can be translated as both belly and womb and "ya-rek" means thigh. However, miscarry has its own word "shakol" as in Gen. 31:38.

Now, it is possible that the phrase "swell your belly" or "rot your thigh" is an euphemism for causing sterility but this would be the only occurrence. But if that's true then the story of Jacob wrestling the Lord takes on a whole new meaning. In Gen 32 we read of Jacob wrestling the Angel of God, a theophany of Jesus, by all accounts. When the Angel saw that "he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip (yarek) so that his hip (yarek) was wrenched as he wrestled with the man."

This means that the Lord was a dirty fighter. When he saw that he could not win, he dropped Jacob with a swift kick to the ...

Doc
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14-07-2014, 02:46 PM
RE: The Bible ok'ing abortion????
(14-07-2014 12:50 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Playing the devil's advocate:

The original Hebrew in Num. 5: 21, 22 and 27 actually says: bə·mê·‘a·yiḵ laṣ-bōt be-ṭen wə-lan-pil yā-rêḵ; i.e. "to swell your belly and to rot (your) thigh." It does not say "your womb to miscarry". It is translated so in the NIV (not the 1984 version), but not in other versions which have the correct translation.

"Be-ten" can be translated as both belly and womb and "ya-rek" means thigh. However, miscarry has its own word "shakol" as in Gen. 31:38.

Now, it is possible that the phrase "swell your belly" or "rot your thigh" is an euphemism for causing sterility but this would be the only occurrence. But if that's true then the story of Jacob wrestling the Lord takes on a whole new meaning. In Gen 32 we read of Jacob wrestling the Angel of God, a theophany of Jesus, by all accounts. When the Angel saw that "he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip (yarek) so that his hip (yarek) was wrenched as he wrestled with the man."

This means that the Lord was a dirty fighter. When he saw that he could not win, he dropped Jacob with a swift kick to the ...

Doc

But now that raises the good question of why translate it into something worse? Probably because they knew people weren't going to read the damn thing anyway.
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15-07-2014, 10:49 AM
RE: The Bible ok'ing abortion????
I'm not sure why the NIV bucked the trend and gave this verse the more ominous translation. Perhaps they did not consider the contradiction of God promoting abortion in the case of adultery when they translated it thus.

Regarding the episode of Jacob wrestling God, there is a fascinating sequel. The Angel of the Lord touched Jacob on his "thigh" and caused shrinkage so that "the children of Israel eat not of the sinew which shrank, which is upon the hollow of the thigh, unto this day: because he touched the hollow of Jacob's thigh in the sinew that shrank." (Gen. 32:32, KJV)

Hmm. Does that mean that the Israelites ate every part of the animal, privates and all, before this episode? Do Jews avoid eating "the sinew which shrank"? What is that part? Any former Jews here that can enlighten us?

Doc
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15-07-2014, 02:02 PM
RE: The Bible ok'ing abortion????
(12-07-2014 09:44 AM)theophilus Wrote:  The reason murder is a sin is that it is a usurpation of God's authority and so is a rebellion against him.
The thing about us atheists, is that we actually don't care for any god's personal morale beliefs. We don't accept that any god has authority and we make our decisions based on the natural world, on real consequences of our actions.

Simply telling us that certain actions are against your god's authority are no different to us telling you that certain actions are against the queen bee's authority.
No doubt you don't care that the queen bee thinks it is only the queen that should have sex and get to reproduce. You are quite happy to rebel against the queen bee and go off and have sex and children of your own despite not being a queen.

So speaking from myself
I don't care what your god thinks I ought to do. I don't accept your god as an authority on me let alone an authority on anything.

Psssst: I don't even think your god exists.
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15-07-2014, 02:28 PM
RE: The Bible ok'ing abortion????
(12-07-2014 09:44 AM)theophilus Wrote:  The Bible prohibits murder and abortion is simply murder in which the victim is still in his mother's womb.

You mean God prohibits murder as said in the bible. Since abortion is murder and God is the one deciding on whether or not to affect this....he's a murder? Pretty sure you didn't think that one through.

Quote:If the woman miscarries it will be because of God's judgment, not the result of the water she had drunk. God created life and so has the authority to end it whenever he wants. The reason murder is a sin is that it is a usurpation of God's authority and so is a rebellion against him.

Again, you just made my point. God's deciding on whether or not to cause the abortion is essentially him deciding on whether to kill or not. He's killed many of times just because of someone doing something he told them not to do(Sodom, The Flood, etc.). So by association, he should punish himself for breaking one of his own rules?
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15-07-2014, 07:49 PM
RE: The Bible ok'ing abortion????
(11-07-2014 02:45 PM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  29 “‘This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and makes herself impure while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the Lord and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.’”[/i]

Another law inflicted on a women because some man hasn't got his shit together. Dodgy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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16-07-2014, 07:18 AM
RE: The Bible ok'ing abortion????
(15-07-2014 07:49 PM)kim Wrote:  Another law inflicted on a women because some man hasn't got his shit together. Dodgy

Yeah I don't understand how women can back this bs.
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