The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
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05-05-2015, 08:40 AM
RE: The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
(05-05-2015 08:35 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 08:29 AM)Ace Wrote:  the Bible's inaccuracy, bad grammar, poor plot, zero character development, no coherent logic, contradiction prove it is the word of hallucinogenic men with bigoted biased political agendas

You forgot the shitty formatting.

But the chapters and verses make for the perfect machete order cognitive dissonance buffet!

Atheism is the only way to truly be free from sin.
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05-05-2015, 09:06 AM
RE: The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
(05-05-2015 08:35 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 08:29 AM)Ace Wrote:  the Bible's inaccuracy, bad grammar, poor plot, zero character development, no coherent logic, contradiction prove it is the word of hallucinogenic men with bigoted biased political agendas

You forgot the shitty formatting.

You also forgot the super thin, cheap paper it's printed on. If it was printed on regular paper, not as thin, it would be five feet thick and wouldn't fit in hotel dresser drawers.

Hummm, wait a minute...........maybe it should be made out of super thick paper.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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05-05-2015, 10:06 AM
RE: The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
(05-05-2015 02:45 AM)Dex Wrote:  So my background is Independent Baptist. My church set up a website in 2008 or 2009 and began posting various articles for members to read. One article was titled "The Bible's Proof", which proved very 'useful' for me in 2010 when I first started doubting. I found the article at its source over at wayoflife.org (a treasure trove of fundamentalist articles, including tons about evolution) here:

The Bible's Proof

I thought those of you interested in dissecting Christian apologetics might like to give it a read. I've copy-pasted the bullet points below, and I'll go ahead and write a response, not because I'm great or knowledgeable at counter-apolgetics but because I don't want to be a lazy poster.

1. The testimony of Jesus Christ proves that the Bible is the Word of God.

2. The Bible’s unique construction proves that it is the Word of God.

3. The confidence and sincerity of the Bible’s authors prove that it is the Word of God.

4. Fulfilled prophecy proves the Bible is the Word of God.

5. The Bible’s factualness and scientific accuracy prove that it is the Word of God.

6. The Bible’s candor proves that it is the Word of God.

7. The Bible’s indestructibility proves that it is the Word of God.

8. The Bible’s universal appeal proves that it is the Word of God.

9. The Bible’s doctrine of salvation proves it is the Word of God.


---

My (inadequate) responses to some of the points; feel free to skip:

1. First Point: A pervasive theme in Christianity is the overwhelming shittiness of human beings, so why is the fact that this applies also to the church "founders" a point for Biblical veracity? Besides, the real founder is supposedly Jesus, and he's friggin' perfect. So yeah, "When someone invents a religion, he glorifies its leaders..." definitely applies to Christianity.
Second Point: Hundreds of eyewitnesses whom we only know about because of the writings of one guy. Not really convincing, in my opinion.
Third Point: Any good storyteller is going to develop his or her characters, especially after they've experienced a significant event. So what? Do we have reliable documentation of the resurrection itself, as well as the behavior of Christians before and after?
Fourth Point: This is just a stupid point.

2. Given that the Bible was assembled meticulously by a bunch of people with a singular goal, this point doesn't mean much to me. Besides, given all the scholarly information on how the Bible was written and put together, I suspect that there's information in this point that is just wrong. But I've yet to study said scholarly information yet. On my to-do list.

3. This is mostly just using the Bible to prove the Bible.

4. Again, most of this is using the Bible to prove the Bible. The bit about Israel is intriguing to me, especially all the crazy shit that's happened to them and how they became a nation again in the '48, but I haven't seen anything while looking into that that convinced me the Bible was true.

5. This'll be a little longer. As expected, almost everything in this section comes from Job.

"The Bible says man is a sinner, and this is not difficult to confirm." Just, Facepalm

"Though the Bible contradicts evolutionary theories, it does not contradict any established scientific fact." Laughat

"Job said the earth is hung upon nothing." A mention of gravitational forces and the physics of orbiting objects would have been great.

"Job said the air has weight." No, he (sort of) said the wind has weight. He probably felt the wind pushing on him and saw it pushing the trees and concluded it has weight. He didn't say, "air, like everything, is made of atoms which have mass, and due to gravity, the air has weight." That would've been something.

"Job described the springs of the sea." I don't have anything to say here.

"Job understood that light has a way and that darkness has a place." Okay this one is just ridiculous. You're outright lying, at least looking at versions other than the KJV. They read like both light and darkness have a "place" where they reside. The King James Version reads, "Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof?" While I can see what the apologist would argue (that "way" means "journey" or "road", as "in the way" is often found in the Bible when describing a person moving from one place to another, and thus Job is saying light is moving) I think the NIV rewording has it right ("What is the way to the abode of light?") Based on the word "dwelleth", I think it's clearly asking how to get to where light comes from. That said, even if this is a demonstration that the author of Job understood that light moves and darkness is stationary, 1) that doesn't seem like a hard conclusion to reach, and 2) darkness isn't a thing...

"The Bible says that light creates wind" I don't see how this is what the specified verse is saying, but regardless, it's not exactly accurate to say "light creates wind" ya loons. Wind is caused by atmospheric pressure differentials, which can be caused by heat, which comes from the sun, yes; but heat isn't light. Facepalm

"Job describes the amazing hydrological cycle." All I'm seeing in these verses are rain and ascending vapours, not a description of "evaporation, condensation, atmospheric circulation, precipitation, run-off." While it would certainly be impressive if the author understood that water rises as vapor, I'm not really seeing a description of evaporation.

"The Bible says plants and animals reproduce after their kind." Well, plants and animals reproducing more of themselves was perfectly observable at the time, so it's hardly remarkable that they observed it, especially given that they were an agricultural society partly dependent upon that knowledge

"The Bible says the heavens cannot be measured and the stars are without number." A primitive human looking up at the vast sky and declaring that the heavens cannot be measured and the stars are beyond counting? Whaaat? Anyway, that's not what Genesis 22:17 says. It just says God will multiply Abraham's seed as the stars of the heaven. Assuming that doesn't mean stars reproduce sexually, I want to know where Abraham's 70,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 descendants are. Also, the Jeremiah verse says the foundations of the earth can't be searched out. Depending on what is meant by "foundations" here, I'm not sure that's true...

"The Bible says there are paths in the sea." What you're saying this is saying, I'm not sure it's saying that..

"The Bible says the life is in the blood." Not surprising in a religion centered around blood sacrifice.

Much of Job is very metaphorical, hard-to-follow jibber-jabber, so I'm not sure how pulling out the few words/phrases that can be twisted to superficially sound kind of like what we know now from science proves that the Bible is factually and scientifically accurate.

6. Already addressed in point 1. The holy text of a religion obsessed with how shitty man is talking about how shitty man is doesn't prove the stuff in the text really happened. And it doesn't mean the text is divinely inspired either. Tons of writings by humans about other humans, real or fictional, include the faults of their subjects.

7. An interesting historical sequence to study, but doesn't prove anything.

8. The text of the most popular religion ever is also the most widely distributed text? Whaaaat?

9. Well, you're missing some steps. All that proves is that the Bible is special in at least one way. First you've got to prove that God exists. Then you've got to prove that his method of salvation is salvation through grace. Then I could see you trying to use this argument to prove that the Bible was his true word. (This is ignoring all the Christian sects that believe works are necessary)

I'd recommend trimming all to # 4, to maintain focus. I would be open to deconversion if I've made a mistake, but fulfilled prophecy is not only a slam dunk for God, it's God's statement on His Bible:

1 Cor 15: "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures..."

1 Peter 1: "As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow."

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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05-05-2015, 10:19 AM
RE: The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
It's always the same shit with these assholes.


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05-05-2015, 10:34 AM
RE: The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
(05-05-2015 10:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 02:45 AM)Dex Wrote:  So my background is Independent Baptist. My church set up a website in 2008 or 2009 and began posting various articles for members to read. One article was titled "The Bible's Proof", which proved very 'useful' for me in 2010 when I first started doubting. I found the article at its source over at wayoflife.org (a treasure trove of fundamentalist articles, including tons about evolution) here:

The Bible's Proof

I thought those of you interested in dissecting Christian apologetics might like to give it a read. I've copy-pasted the bullet points below, and I'll go ahead and write a response, not because I'm great or knowledgeable at counter-apolgetics but because I don't want to be a lazy poster.

1. The testimony of Jesus Christ proves that the Bible is the Word of God.

2. The Bible’s unique construction proves that it is the Word of God.

3. The confidence and sincerity of the Bible’s authors prove that it is the Word of God.

4. Fulfilled prophecy proves the Bible is the Word of God.

5. The Bible’s factualness and scientific accuracy prove that it is the Word of God.

6. The Bible’s candor proves that it is the Word of God.

7. The Bible’s indestructibility proves that it is the Word of God.

8. The Bible’s universal appeal proves that it is the Word of God.

9. The Bible’s doctrine of salvation proves it is the Word of God.


---

My (inadequate) responses to some of the points; feel free to skip:

1. First Point: A pervasive theme in Christianity is the overwhelming shittiness of human beings, so why is the fact that this applies also to the church "founders" a point for Biblical veracity? Besides, the real founder is supposedly Jesus, and he's friggin' perfect. So yeah, "When someone invents a religion, he glorifies its leaders..." definitely applies to Christianity.
Second Point: Hundreds of eyewitnesses whom we only know about because of the writings of one guy. Not really convincing, in my opinion.
Third Point: Any good storyteller is going to develop his or her characters, especially after they've experienced a significant event. So what? Do we have reliable documentation of the resurrection itself, as well as the behavior of Christians before and after?
Fourth Point: This is just a stupid point.

2. Given that the Bible was assembled meticulously by a bunch of people with a singular goal, this point doesn't mean much to me. Besides, given all the scholarly information on how the Bible was written and put together, I suspect that there's information in this point that is just wrong. But I've yet to study said scholarly information yet. On my to-do list.

3. This is mostly just using the Bible to prove the Bible.

4. Again, most of this is using the Bible to prove the Bible. The bit about Israel is intriguing to me, especially all the crazy shit that's happened to them and how they became a nation again in the '48, but I haven't seen anything while looking into that that convinced me the Bible was true.

5. This'll be a little longer. As expected, almost everything in this section comes from Job.

"The Bible says man is a sinner, and this is not difficult to confirm." Just, Facepalm

"Though the Bible contradicts evolutionary theories, it does not contradict any established scientific fact." Laughat

"Job said the earth is hung upon nothing." A mention of gravitational forces and the physics of orbiting objects would have been great.

"Job said the air has weight." No, he (sort of) said the wind has weight. He probably felt the wind pushing on him and saw it pushing the trees and concluded it has weight. He didn't say, "air, like everything, is made of atoms which have mass, and due to gravity, the air has weight." That would've been something.

"Job described the springs of the sea." I don't have anything to say here.

"Job understood that light has a way and that darkness has a place." Okay this one is just ridiculous. You're outright lying, at least looking at versions other than the KJV. They read like both light and darkness have a "place" where they reside. The King James Version reads, "Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof?" While I can see what the apologist would argue (that "way" means "journey" or "road", as "in the way" is often found in the Bible when describing a person moving from one place to another, and thus Job is saying light is moving) I think the NIV rewording has it right ("What is the way to the abode of light?") Based on the word "dwelleth", I think it's clearly asking how to get to where light comes from. That said, even if this is a demonstration that the author of Job understood that light moves and darkness is stationary, 1) that doesn't seem like a hard conclusion to reach, and 2) darkness isn't a thing...

"The Bible says that light creates wind" I don't see how this is what the specified verse is saying, but regardless, it's not exactly accurate to say "light creates wind" ya loons. Wind is caused by atmospheric pressure differentials, which can be caused by heat, which comes from the sun, yes; but heat isn't light. Facepalm

"Job describes the amazing hydrological cycle." All I'm seeing in these verses are rain and ascending vapours, not a description of "evaporation, condensation, atmospheric circulation, precipitation, run-off." While it would certainly be impressive if the author understood that water rises as vapor, I'm not really seeing a description of evaporation.

"The Bible says plants and animals reproduce after their kind." Well, plants and animals reproducing more of themselves was perfectly observable at the time, so it's hardly remarkable that they observed it, especially given that they were an agricultural society partly dependent upon that knowledge

"The Bible says the heavens cannot be measured and the stars are without number." A primitive human looking up at the vast sky and declaring that the heavens cannot be measured and the stars are beyond counting? Whaaat? Anyway, that's not what Genesis 22:17 says. It just says God will multiply Abraham's seed as the stars of the heaven. Assuming that doesn't mean stars reproduce sexually, I want to know where Abraham's 70,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 descendants are. Also, the Jeremiah verse says the foundations of the earth can't be searched out. Depending on what is meant by "foundations" here, I'm not sure that's true...

"The Bible says there are paths in the sea." What you're saying this is saying, I'm not sure it's saying that..

"The Bible says the life is in the blood." Not surprising in a religion centered around blood sacrifice.

Much of Job is very metaphorical, hard-to-follow jibber-jabber, so I'm not sure how pulling out the few words/phrases that can be twisted to superficially sound kind of like what we know now from science proves that the Bible is factually and scientifically accurate.

6. Already addressed in point 1. The holy text of a religion obsessed with how shitty man is talking about how shitty man is doesn't prove the stuff in the text really happened. And it doesn't mean the text is divinely inspired either. Tons of writings by humans about other humans, real or fictional, include the faults of their subjects.

7. An interesting historical sequence to study, but doesn't prove anything.

8. The text of the most popular religion ever is also the most widely distributed text? Whaaaat?

9. Well, you're missing some steps. All that proves is that the Bible is special in at least one way. First you've got to prove that God exists. Then you've got to prove that his method of salvation is salvation through grace. Then I could see you trying to use this argument to prove that the Bible was his true word. (This is ignoring all the Christian sects that believe works are necessary)

I'd recommend trimming all to # 4, to maintain focus. I would be open to deconversion if I've made a mistake, but fulfilled prophecy is not only a slam dunk for God, it's God's statement on His Bible:

1 Cor 15: "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures..."

1 Peter 1: "As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow."

Except there is no proof.

"If you keep trying to better yourself that's enough for me. We don't decide which hand we are dealt in life, but we make the decision to play it or fold it" - Nishi Karano Kaze
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05-05-2015, 10:47 AM
RE: The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
Rational Wiki's Biblical Prophecies, and how they failed to be fulfilled. I was going to write some out, but they do such a nice job I couldn't do it justice.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_pr...prophecies

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05-05-2015, 11:16 AM
RE: The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
(05-05-2015 10:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 02:45 AM)Dex Wrote:  So my background is Independent Baptist. My church set up a website in 2008 or 2009 and began posting various articles for members to read. One article was titled "The Bible's Proof", which proved very 'useful' for me in 2010 when I first started doubting. I found the article at its source over at wayoflife.org (a treasure trove of fundamentalist articles, including tons about evolution) here:

The Bible's Proof

I thought those of you interested in dissecting Christian apologetics might like to give it a read. I've copy-pasted the bullet points below, and I'll go ahead and write a response, not because I'm great or knowledgeable at counter-apolgetics but because I don't want to be a lazy poster.

1. The testimony of Jesus Christ proves that the Bible is the Word of God.

2. The Bible’s unique construction proves that it is the Word of God.

3. The confidence and sincerity of the Bible’s authors prove that it is the Word of God.

4. Fulfilled prophecy proves the Bible is the Word of God.

5. The Bible’s factualness and scientific accuracy prove that it is the Word of God.

6. The Bible’s candor proves that it is the Word of God.

7. The Bible’s indestructibility proves that it is the Word of God.

8. The Bible’s universal appeal proves that it is the Word of God.

9. The Bible’s doctrine of salvation proves it is the Word of God.


---

My (inadequate) responses to some of the points; feel free to skip:

1. First Point: A pervasive theme in Christianity is the overwhelming shittiness of human beings, so why is the fact that this applies also to the church "founders" a point for Biblical veracity? Besides, the real founder is supposedly Jesus, and he's friggin' perfect. So yeah, "When someone invents a religion, he glorifies its leaders..." definitely applies to Christianity.
Second Point: Hundreds of eyewitnesses whom we only know about because of the writings of one guy. Not really convincing, in my opinion.
Third Point: Any good storyteller is going to develop his or her characters, especially after they've experienced a significant event. So what? Do we have reliable documentation of the resurrection itself, as well as the behavior of Christians before and after?
Fourth Point: This is just a stupid point.

2. Given that the Bible was assembled meticulously by a bunch of people with a singular goal, this point doesn't mean much to me. Besides, given all the scholarly information on how the Bible was written and put together, I suspect that there's information in this point that is just wrong. But I've yet to study said scholarly information yet. On my to-do list.

3. This is mostly just using the Bible to prove the Bible.

4. Again, most of this is using the Bible to prove the Bible. The bit about Israel is intriguing to me, especially all the crazy shit that's happened to them and how they became a nation again in the '48, but I haven't seen anything while looking into that that convinced me the Bible was true.

5. This'll be a little longer. As expected, almost everything in this section comes from Job.

"The Bible says man is a sinner, and this is not difficult to confirm." Just, Facepalm

"Though the Bible contradicts evolutionary theories, it does not contradict any established scientific fact." Laughat

"Job said the earth is hung upon nothing." A mention of gravitational forces and the physics of orbiting objects would have been great.

"Job said the air has weight." No, he (sort of) said the wind has weight. He probably felt the wind pushing on him and saw it pushing the trees and concluded it has weight. He didn't say, "air, like everything, is made of atoms which have mass, and due to gravity, the air has weight." That would've been something.

"Job described the springs of the sea." I don't have anything to say here.

"Job understood that light has a way and that darkness has a place." Okay this one is just ridiculous. You're outright lying, at least looking at versions other than the KJV. They read like both light and darkness have a "place" where they reside. The King James Version reads, "Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof?" While I can see what the apologist would argue (that "way" means "journey" or "road", as "in the way" is often found in the Bible when describing a person moving from one place to another, and thus Job is saying light is moving) I think the NIV rewording has it right ("What is the way to the abode of light?") Based on the word "dwelleth", I think it's clearly asking how to get to where light comes from. That said, even if this is a demonstration that the author of Job understood that light moves and darkness is stationary, 1) that doesn't seem like a hard conclusion to reach, and 2) darkness isn't a thing...

"The Bible says that light creates wind" I don't see how this is what the specified verse is saying, but regardless, it's not exactly accurate to say "light creates wind" ya loons. Wind is caused by atmospheric pressure differentials, which can be caused by heat, which comes from the sun, yes; but heat isn't light. Facepalm

"Job describes the amazing hydrological cycle." All I'm seeing in these verses are rain and ascending vapours, not a description of "evaporation, condensation, atmospheric circulation, precipitation, run-off." While it would certainly be impressive if the author understood that water rises as vapor, I'm not really seeing a description of evaporation.

"The Bible says plants and animals reproduce after their kind." Well, plants and animals reproducing more of themselves was perfectly observable at the time, so it's hardly remarkable that they observed it, especially given that they were an agricultural society partly dependent upon that knowledge

"The Bible says the heavens cannot be measured and the stars are without number." A primitive human looking up at the vast sky and declaring that the heavens cannot be measured and the stars are beyond counting? Whaaat? Anyway, that's not what Genesis 22:17 says. It just says God will multiply Abraham's seed as the stars of the heaven. Assuming that doesn't mean stars reproduce sexually, I want to know where Abraham's 70,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 descendants are. Also, the Jeremiah verse says the foundations of the earth can't be searched out. Depending on what is meant by "foundations" here, I'm not sure that's true...

"The Bible says there are paths in the sea." What you're saying this is saying, I'm not sure it's saying that..

"The Bible says the life is in the blood." Not surprising in a religion centered around blood sacrifice.

Much of Job is very metaphorical, hard-to-follow jibber-jabber, so I'm not sure how pulling out the few words/phrases that can be twisted to superficially sound kind of like what we know now from science proves that the Bible is factually and scientifically accurate.

6. Already addressed in point 1. The holy text of a religion obsessed with how shitty man is talking about how shitty man is doesn't prove the stuff in the text really happened. And it doesn't mean the text is divinely inspired either. Tons of writings by humans about other humans, real or fictional, include the faults of their subjects.

7. An interesting historical sequence to study, but doesn't prove anything.

8. The text of the most popular religion ever is also the most widely distributed text? Whaaaat?

9. Well, you're missing some steps. All that proves is that the Bible is special in at least one way. First you've got to prove that God exists. Then you've got to prove that his method of salvation is salvation through grace. Then I could see you trying to use this argument to prove that the Bible was his true word. (This is ignoring all the Christian sects that believe works are necessary)

I'd recommend trimming all to # 4, to maintain focus. I would be open to deconversion if I've made a mistake, but fulfilled prophecy is not only a slam dunk for God, it's God's statement on His Bible:

1 Cor 15: "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures..."

1 Peter 1: "As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow."

More bible quoting - man he doesn't get it! Prove that any writings you post are messages from a god. Show me why these statements are from god and not the imagination of men. You fail to accomplish this, which makes bible quoting on this forum a waste of keystrokes.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
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05-05-2015, 11:40 AM
RE: The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
(05-05-2015 10:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 02:45 AM)Dex Wrote:  So my background is Independent Baptist. My church set up a website in 2008 or 2009 and began posting various articles for members to read. One article was titled "The Bible's Proof", which proved very 'useful' for me in 2010 when I first started doubting. I found the article at its source over at wayoflife.org (a treasure trove of fundamentalist articles, including tons about evolution) here:

The Bible's Proof

I thought those of you interested in dissecting Christian apologetics might like to give it a read. I've copy-pasted the bullet points below, and I'll go ahead and write a response, not because I'm great or knowledgeable at counter-apolgetics but because I don't want to be a lazy poster.

1. The testimony of Jesus Christ proves that the Bible is the Word of God.

2. The Bible’s unique construction proves that it is the Word of God.

3. The confidence and sincerity of the Bible’s authors prove that it is the Word of God.

4. Fulfilled prophecy proves the Bible is the Word of God.

5. The Bible’s factualness and scientific accuracy prove that it is the Word of God.

6. The Bible’s candor proves that it is the Word of God.

7. The Bible’s indestructibility proves that it is the Word of God.

8. The Bible’s universal appeal proves that it is the Word of God.

9. The Bible’s doctrine of salvation proves it is the Word of God.


---

My (inadequate) responses to some of the points; feel free to skip:

1. First Point: A pervasive theme in Christianity is the overwhelming shittiness of human beings, so why is the fact that this applies also to the church "founders" a point for Biblical veracity? Besides, the real founder is supposedly Jesus, and he's friggin' perfect. So yeah, "When someone invents a religion, he glorifies its leaders..." definitely applies to Christianity.
Second Point: Hundreds of eyewitnesses whom we only know about because of the writings of one guy. Not really convincing, in my opinion.
Third Point: Any good storyteller is going to develop his or her characters, especially after they've experienced a significant event. So what? Do we have reliable documentation of the resurrection itself, as well as the behavior of Christians before and after?
Fourth Point: This is just a stupid point.

2. Given that the Bible was assembled meticulously by a bunch of people with a singular goal, this point doesn't mean much to me. Besides, given all the scholarly information on how the Bible was written and put together, I suspect that there's information in this point that is just wrong. But I've yet to study said scholarly information yet. On my to-do list.

3. This is mostly just using the Bible to prove the Bible.

4. Again, most of this is using the Bible to prove the Bible. The bit about Israel is intriguing to me, especially all the crazy shit that's happened to them and how they became a nation again in the '48, but I haven't seen anything while looking into that that convinced me the Bible was true.

5. This'll be a little longer. As expected, almost everything in this section comes from Job.

"The Bible says man is a sinner, and this is not difficult to confirm." Just, Facepalm

"Though the Bible contradicts evolutionary theories, it does not contradict any established scientific fact." Laughat

"Job said the earth is hung upon nothing." A mention of gravitational forces and the physics of orbiting objects would have been great.

"Job said the air has weight." No, he (sort of) said the wind has weight. He probably felt the wind pushing on him and saw it pushing the trees and concluded it has weight. He didn't say, "air, like everything, is made of atoms which have mass, and due to gravity, the air has weight." That would've been something.

"Job described the springs of the sea." I don't have anything to say here.

"Job understood that light has a way and that darkness has a place." Okay this one is just ridiculous. You're outright lying, at least looking at versions other than the KJV. They read like both light and darkness have a "place" where they reside. The King James Version reads, "Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof?" While I can see what the apologist would argue (that "way" means "journey" or "road", as "in the way" is often found in the Bible when describing a person moving from one place to another, and thus Job is saying light is moving) I think the NIV rewording has it right ("What is the way to the abode of light?") Based on the word "dwelleth", I think it's clearly asking how to get to where light comes from. That said, even if this is a demonstration that the author of Job understood that light moves and darkness is stationary, 1) that doesn't seem like a hard conclusion to reach, and 2) darkness isn't a thing...

"The Bible says that light creates wind" I don't see how this is what the specified verse is saying, but regardless, it's not exactly accurate to say "light creates wind" ya loons. Wind is caused by atmospheric pressure differentials, which can be caused by heat, which comes from the sun, yes; but heat isn't light. Facepalm

"Job describes the amazing hydrological cycle." All I'm seeing in these verses are rain and ascending vapours, not a description of "evaporation, condensation, atmospheric circulation, precipitation, run-off." While it would certainly be impressive if the author understood that water rises as vapor, I'm not really seeing a description of evaporation.

"The Bible says plants and animals reproduce after their kind." Well, plants and animals reproducing more of themselves was perfectly observable at the time, so it's hardly remarkable that they observed it, especially given that they were an agricultural society partly dependent upon that knowledge

"The Bible says the heavens cannot be measured and the stars are without number." A primitive human looking up at the vast sky and declaring that the heavens cannot be measured and the stars are beyond counting? Whaaat? Anyway, that's not what Genesis 22:17 says. It just says God will multiply Abraham's seed as the stars of the heaven. Assuming that doesn't mean stars reproduce sexually, I want to know where Abraham's 70,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 descendants are. Also, the Jeremiah verse says the foundations of the earth can't be searched out. Depending on what is meant by "foundations" here, I'm not sure that's true...

"The Bible says there are paths in the sea." What you're saying this is saying, I'm not sure it's saying that..

"The Bible says the life is in the blood." Not surprising in a religion centered around blood sacrifice.

Much of Job is very metaphorical, hard-to-follow jibber-jabber, so I'm not sure how pulling out the few words/phrases that can be twisted to superficially sound kind of like what we know now from science proves that the Bible is factually and scientifically accurate.

6. Already addressed in point 1. The holy text of a religion obsessed with how shitty man is talking about how shitty man is doesn't prove the stuff in the text really happened. And it doesn't mean the text is divinely inspired either. Tons of writings by humans about other humans, real or fictional, include the faults of their subjects.

7. An interesting historical sequence to study, but doesn't prove anything.

8. The text of the most popular religion ever is also the most widely distributed text? Whaaaat?

9. Well, you're missing some steps. All that proves is that the Bible is special in at least one way. First you've got to prove that God exists. Then you've got to prove that his method of salvation is salvation through grace. Then I could see you trying to use this argument to prove that the Bible was his true word. (This is ignoring all the Christian sects that believe works are necessary)

I'd recommend trimming all to # 4, to maintain focus. I would be open to deconversion if I've made a mistake, but fulfilled prophecy is not only a slam dunk for God, it's God's statement on His Bible:

1 Cor 15: "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures..."

1 Peter 1: "As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow."

....

Blah, blah, blah... bleat, bay, bark......


same shit, different day....

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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05-05-2015, 12:56 PM
RE: The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
(05-05-2015 10:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 02:45 AM)Dex Wrote:  So my background is Independent Baptist. My church set up a website in 2008 or 2009 and began posting various articles for members to read. One article was titled "The Bible's Proof", which proved very 'useful' for me in 2010 when I first started doubting. I found the article at its source over at wayoflife.org (a treasure trove of fundamentalist articles, including tons about evolution) here:

The Bible's Proof

I thought those of you interested in dissecting Christian apologetics might like to give it a read. I've copy-pasted the bullet points below, and I'll go ahead and write a response, not because I'm great or knowledgeable at counter-apolgetics but because I don't want to be a lazy poster.

1. The testimony of Jesus Christ proves that the Bible is the Word of God.

2. The Bible’s unique construction proves that it is the Word of God.

3. The confidence and sincerity of the Bible’s authors prove that it is the Word of God.

4. Fulfilled prophecy proves the Bible is the Word of God.

5. The Bible’s factualness and scientific accuracy prove that it is the Word of God.

6. The Bible’s candor proves that it is the Word of God.

7. The Bible’s indestructibility proves that it is the Word of God.

8. The Bible’s universal appeal proves that it is the Word of God.

9. The Bible’s doctrine of salvation proves it is the Word of God.


---

My (inadequate) responses to some of the points; feel free to skip:

1. First Point: A pervasive theme in Christianity is the overwhelming shittiness of human beings, so why is the fact that this applies also to the church "founders" a point for Biblical veracity? Besides, the real founder is supposedly Jesus, and he's friggin' perfect. So yeah, "When someone invents a religion, he glorifies its leaders..." definitely applies to Christianity.
Second Point: Hundreds of eyewitnesses whom we only know about because of the writings of one guy. Not really convincing, in my opinion.
Third Point: Any good storyteller is going to develop his or her characters, especially after they've experienced a significant event. So what? Do we have reliable documentation of the resurrection itself, as well as the behavior of Christians before and after?
Fourth Point: This is just a stupid point.

2. Given that the Bible was assembled meticulously by a bunch of people with a singular goal, this point doesn't mean much to me. Besides, given all the scholarly information on how the Bible was written and put together, I suspect that there's information in this point that is just wrong. But I've yet to study said scholarly information yet. On my to-do list.

3. This is mostly just using the Bible to prove the Bible.

4. Again, most of this is using the Bible to prove the Bible. The bit about Israel is intriguing to me, especially all the crazy shit that's happened to them and how they became a nation again in the '48, but I haven't seen anything while looking into that that convinced me the Bible was true.

5. This'll be a little longer. As expected, almost everything in this section comes from Job.

"The Bible says man is a sinner, and this is not difficult to confirm." Just, Facepalm

"Though the Bible contradicts evolutionary theories, it does not contradict any established scientific fact." Laughat

"Job said the earth is hung upon nothing." A mention of gravitational forces and the physics of orbiting objects would have been great.

"Job said the air has weight." No, he (sort of) said the wind has weight. He probably felt the wind pushing on him and saw it pushing the trees and concluded it has weight. He didn't say, "air, like everything, is made of atoms which have mass, and due to gravity, the air has weight." That would've been something.

"Job described the springs of the sea." I don't have anything to say here.

"Job understood that light has a way and that darkness has a place." Okay this one is just ridiculous. You're outright lying, at least looking at versions other than the KJV. They read like both light and darkness have a "place" where they reside. The King James Version reads, "Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof?" While I can see what the apologist would argue (that "way" means "journey" or "road", as "in the way" is often found in the Bible when describing a person moving from one place to another, and thus Job is saying light is moving) I think the NIV rewording has it right ("What is the way to the abode of light?") Based on the word "dwelleth", I think it's clearly asking how to get to where light comes from. That said, even if this is a demonstration that the author of Job understood that light moves and darkness is stationary, 1) that doesn't seem like a hard conclusion to reach, and 2) darkness isn't a thing...

"The Bible says that light creates wind" I don't see how this is what the specified verse is saying, but regardless, it's not exactly accurate to say "light creates wind" ya loons. Wind is caused by atmospheric pressure differentials, which can be caused by heat, which comes from the sun, yes; but heat isn't light. Facepalm

"Job describes the amazing hydrological cycle." All I'm seeing in these verses are rain and ascending vapours, not a description of "evaporation, condensation, atmospheric circulation, precipitation, run-off." While it would certainly be impressive if the author understood that water rises as vapor, I'm not really seeing a description of evaporation.

"The Bible says plants and animals reproduce after their kind." Well, plants and animals reproducing more of themselves was perfectly observable at the time, so it's hardly remarkable that they observed it, especially given that they were an agricultural society partly dependent upon that knowledge

"The Bible says the heavens cannot be measured and the stars are without number." A primitive human looking up at the vast sky and declaring that the heavens cannot be measured and the stars are beyond counting? Whaaat? Anyway, that's not what Genesis 22:17 says. It just says God will multiply Abraham's seed as the stars of the heaven. Assuming that doesn't mean stars reproduce sexually, I want to know where Abraham's 70,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 descendants are. Also, the Jeremiah verse says the foundations of the earth can't be searched out. Depending on what is meant by "foundations" here, I'm not sure that's true...

"The Bible says there are paths in the sea." What you're saying this is saying, I'm not sure it's saying that..

"The Bible says the life is in the blood." Not surprising in a religion centered around blood sacrifice.

Much of Job is very metaphorical, hard-to-follow jibber-jabber, so I'm not sure how pulling out the few words/phrases that can be twisted to superficially sound kind of like what we know now from science proves that the Bible is factually and scientifically accurate.

6. Already addressed in point 1. The holy text of a religion obsessed with how shitty man is talking about how shitty man is doesn't prove the stuff in the text really happened. And it doesn't mean the text is divinely inspired either. Tons of writings by humans about other humans, real or fictional, include the faults of their subjects.

7. An interesting historical sequence to study, but doesn't prove anything.

8. The text of the most popular religion ever is also the most widely distributed text? Whaaaat?

9. Well, you're missing some steps. All that proves is that the Bible is special in at least one way. First you've got to prove that God exists. Then you've got to prove that his method of salvation is salvation through grace. Then I could see you trying to use this argument to prove that the Bible was his true word. (This is ignoring all the Christian sects that believe works are necessary)

I'd recommend trimming all to # 4, to maintain focus. I would be open to deconversion if I've made a mistake, but fulfilled prophecy is not only a slam dunk for God, it's God's statement on His Bible:

1 Cor 15: "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures..."

1 Peter 1: "As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow."

It would really be great if the mods started considering your bible blather as spam and kick your sorry ass off of this forum.

You have nothing useful to contribute except as an example of deep delusion.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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05-05-2015, 02:08 PM
RE: The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
(05-05-2015 10:47 AM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Rational Wiki's Biblical Prophecies, and how they failed to be fulfilled. I was going to write some out, but they do such a nice job I couldn't do it justice.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_pr...prophecies

Quote:But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.


If you read all of Micah 5 you will see that it has nothing to do with fucking jesus and instead deals with the Assyrian invasion of 722 BC. "Micah" predicts a great leader will arise and defeat the Assyrians. Didn't happen. Assyria won.

Fuck jesus.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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