The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
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06-05-2015, 08:28 AM
RE: The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
(05-05-2015 10:19 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  It's always the same shit with these assholes.

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1. Is that the language I use when I conduct myself on this forum? Can you show me some respect, please?

2. If you did respect me, you'd have actually read my post before making your reply. a) The Bible has prophecy b) we can go outside the Bible to see prophecy confirmed c) The Bible is proven true. This is a linear progression, not a circle.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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06-05-2015, 08:33 AM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2015 08:45 AM by JDog554.)
RE: The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
(06-05-2015 08:28 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 10:19 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  It's always the same shit with these assholes.

[Image: break-the-cycle4.jpg]

1. Is that the language I use when I conduct myself on this forum? Can you show me some respect, please?

2. If you did respect me, you'd have actually read my post before making your reply. a) The Bible has prophecy b) we can go outside the Bible to see prophecy confirmed c) The Bible is proven true. This is a linear progression, not a circle.

And you're wrong. A) Yes B) Only with somethings, we can see the temple was destroyed but there is no outside proof of a resurrection. Though most "prophecies" were written well after what was "prophecized" to happen so it's easy to write a prophecy of an event that already happened. C) No it's not.

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06-05-2015, 12:47 PM
RE: The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
(05-05-2015 10:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 02:45 AM)Dex Wrote:  So my background is Independent Baptist. My church set up a website in 2008 or 2009 and began posting various articles for members to read. One article was titled "The Bible's Proof", which proved very 'useful' for me in 2010 when I first started doubting. I found the article at its source over at wayoflife.org (a treasure trove of fundamentalist articles, including tons about evolution) here:

The Bible's Proof

I thought those of you interested in dissecting Christian apologetics might like to give it a read. I've copy-pasted the bullet points below, and I'll go ahead and write a response, not because I'm great or knowledgeable at counter-apolgetics but because I don't want to be a lazy poster.

1. The testimony of Jesus Christ proves that the Bible is the Word of God.

2. The Bible’s unique construction proves that it is the Word of God.

3. The confidence and sincerity of the Bible’s authors prove that it is the Word of God.

4. Fulfilled prophecy proves the Bible is the Word of God.

5. The Bible’s factualness and scientific accuracy prove that it is the Word of God.

6. The Bible’s candor proves that it is the Word of God.

7. The Bible’s indestructibility proves that it is the Word of God.

8. The Bible’s universal appeal proves that it is the Word of God.

9. The Bible’s doctrine of salvation proves it is the Word of God.


---

My (inadequate) responses to some of the points; feel free to skip:

1. First Point: A pervasive theme in Christianity is the overwhelming shittiness of human beings, so why is the fact that this applies also to the church "founders" a point for Biblical veracity? Besides, the real founder is supposedly Jesus, and he's friggin' perfect. So yeah, "When someone invents a religion, he glorifies its leaders..." definitely applies to Christianity.
Second Point: Hundreds of eyewitnesses whom we only know about because of the writings of one guy. Not really convincing, in my opinion.
Third Point: Any good storyteller is going to develop his or her characters, especially after they've experienced a significant event. So what? Do we have reliable documentation of the resurrection itself, as well as the behavior of Christians before and after?
Fourth Point: This is just a stupid point.

2. Given that the Bible was assembled meticulously by a bunch of people with a singular goal, this point doesn't mean much to me. Besides, given all the scholarly information on how the Bible was written and put together, I suspect that there's information in this point that is just wrong. But I've yet to study said scholarly information yet. On my to-do list.

3. This is mostly just using the Bible to prove the Bible.

4. Again, most of this is using the Bible to prove the Bible. The bit about Israel is intriguing to me, especially all the crazy shit that's happened to them and how they became a nation again in the '48, but I haven't seen anything while looking into that that convinced me the Bible was true.

5. This'll be a little longer. As expected, almost everything in this section comes from Job.

"The Bible says man is a sinner, and this is not difficult to confirm." Just, Facepalm

"Though the Bible contradicts evolutionary theories, it does not contradict any established scientific fact." Laughat

"Job said the earth is hung upon nothing." A mention of gravitational forces and the physics of orbiting objects would have been great.

"Job said the air has weight." No, he (sort of) said the wind has weight. He probably felt the wind pushing on him and saw it pushing the trees and concluded it has weight. He didn't say, "air, like everything, is made of atoms which have mass, and due to gravity, the air has weight." That would've been something.

"Job described the springs of the sea." I don't have anything to say here.

"Job understood that light has a way and that darkness has a place." Okay this one is just ridiculous. You're outright lying, at least looking at versions other than the KJV. They read like both light and darkness have a "place" where they reside. The King James Version reads, "Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof?" While I can see what the apologist would argue (that "way" means "journey" or "road", as "in the way" is often found in the Bible when describing a person moving from one place to another, and thus Job is saying light is moving) I think the NIV rewording has it right ("What is the way to the abode of light?") Based on the word "dwelleth", I think it's clearly asking how to get to where light comes from. That said, even if this is a demonstration that the author of Job understood that light moves and darkness is stationary, 1) that doesn't seem like a hard conclusion to reach, and 2) darkness isn't a thing...

"The Bible says that light creates wind" I don't see how this is what the specified verse is saying, but regardless, it's not exactly accurate to say "light creates wind" ya loons. Wind is caused by atmospheric pressure differentials, which can be caused by heat, which comes from the sun, yes; but heat isn't light. Facepalm

"Job describes the amazing hydrological cycle." All I'm seeing in these verses are rain and ascending vapours, not a description of "evaporation, condensation, atmospheric circulation, precipitation, run-off." While it would certainly be impressive if the author understood that water rises as vapor, I'm not really seeing a description of evaporation.

"The Bible says plants and animals reproduce after their kind." Well, plants and animals reproducing more of themselves was perfectly observable at the time, so it's hardly remarkable that they observed it, especially given that they were an agricultural society partly dependent upon that knowledge

"The Bible says the heavens cannot be measured and the stars are without number." A primitive human looking up at the vast sky and declaring that the heavens cannot be measured and the stars are beyond counting? Whaaat? Anyway, that's not what Genesis 22:17 says. It just says God will multiply Abraham's seed as the stars of the heaven. Assuming that doesn't mean stars reproduce sexually, I want to know where Abraham's 70,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 descendants are. Also, the Jeremiah verse says the foundations of the earth can't be searched out. Depending on what is meant by "foundations" here, I'm not sure that's true...

"The Bible says there are paths in the sea." What you're saying this is saying, I'm not sure it's saying that..

"The Bible says the life is in the blood." Not surprising in a religion centered around blood sacrifice.

Much of Job is very metaphorical, hard-to-follow jibber-jabber, so I'm not sure how pulling out the few words/phrases that can be twisted to superficially sound kind of like what we know now from science proves that the Bible is factually and scientifically accurate.

6. Already addressed in point 1. The holy text of a religion obsessed with how shitty man is talking about how shitty man is doesn't prove the stuff in the text really happened. And it doesn't mean the text is divinely inspired either. Tons of writings by humans about other humans, real or fictional, include the faults of their subjects.

7. An interesting historical sequence to study, but doesn't prove anything.

8. The text of the most popular religion ever is also the most widely distributed text? Whaaaat?

9. Well, you're missing some steps. All that proves is that the Bible is special in at least one way. First you've got to prove that God exists. Then you've got to prove that his method of salvation is salvation through grace. Then I could see you trying to use this argument to prove that the Bible was his true word. (This is ignoring all the Christian sects that believe works are necessary)

I'd recommend trimming all to # 4, to maintain focus. I would be open to deconversion if I've made a mistake, but fulfilled prophecy is not only a slam dunk for God, it's God's statement on His Bible:

1 Cor 15: "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures..."

1 Peter 1: "As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow."

The issue here is that I don't see where the bible confirms that prophecy has been fulfilled. Whenever there was a prophecy that appears to have been fulfilled, textual criticism shows very reasonably that the prophecies are normally post-hoc in nature. Take the gospel of Mark - the first place where we see a prediction of the temple being predicted to be destroyed. When you realize that the gospel was likely written after the temple was destroyed, it isn't much of a prediction. Also, the birth accounts in Matthew and Luke are contradictory. I used to believe that they were simply the same story told from a different point of view. However, when you read them for what they really are, you can see the contradictions play out. Matthew never had Jesus born in Bethlehem, but in Nazareth in a house. Luke had him born in a trough. One tried to make Jesus out to be a social nobody who came from humble beginnings and became a great man, while the other tried to emphasize that Jesus was born a great man and was always deemed as such from the beginning.
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06-05-2015, 02:28 PM
RE: The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
The Bible predicts Israel to become a Jewish state following a very long diaspora. Scattering circa 120 CE, return to statehood 1948 CE. There are other examples, a people retaining their religion, ancient language for religious study, personhood/race for two thousand years in a great scattering--absolutely unprecedented, but not unheralded!

Another prophecy, six of them actually, says the Jewish Messiah will be worshipped worldwide by Gentiles.

Etc. Really top-notch stuff.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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06-05-2015, 08:31 PM
RE: The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
Where are these predictions about Israel being restored in 1948? Are you referring to verses in Ezekiel and Isaiah? You sure you're not referring to writings that were predictions made during the Babylonian Exile? Also, bear in mind that bible predictions in general are worded vaguely enough that you could assign a number of historical events to fulfill prophesy.

Consider this passage: Matt 24:3-8

Quote:The Beginning of Calamities. 3 As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives,[c] the disciples approached him privately and said, “Tell us, when will this happen, and what sign will there be of your coming, and of the end of the age?” 4 [d]Jesus said to them in reply, “See that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and they will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars[e] and reports of wars; see that you are not alarmed, for these things must happen, but it will not yet be the end. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there will be famines and earthquakes from place to place. 8 [f]All these are the beginning of the labor pains.

A prediction of when the Son of Man is to return to judge the world. What criteria shows that the end of the age is approaching? There will be wars, famines and earthquakes. These clues have been going on from the fall of the Roman Empire all the way through today. There have been numerous, I repeat, numerous times where people throughout history thought the end times were coming based on earthquakes, famines and wars. How does this inspire faith? The more of the bible you read, the more you can see how the predictions look more like fortune teller tricks and outright spin. It actually destroys faith when you see this and then see how books of the bible were written years after the events occurred and the prophecies written within them after the outcomes were already known. In particular, when you see that books like Isaiah had 3 separate writers, it shakes the faith in the bible all the more.
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06-05-2015, 11:44 PM
RE: The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
Quote:1. Is that the language I use when I conduct myself on this forum? Can you show me some respect, please?


Fuck you and your superstitious drivel.


I'm tired of you pompous asses.


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07-05-2015, 09:29 AM
RE: The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
(06-05-2015 02:28 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The Bible predicts Israel to become a Jewish state following a very long diaspora. Scattering circa 120 CE, return to statehood 1948 CE. There are other examples, a people retaining their religion, ancient language for religious study, personhood/race for two thousand years in a great scattering--absolutely unprecedented, but not unheralded!

Another prophecy, six of them actually, says the Jewish Messiah will be worshipped worldwide by Gentiles.

Etc. Really top-notch stuff.

If I were to predict that the huge pine tree in the front yard would be cut down in three years and my husband, knowing this prediction, cuts it down three years from now, this is NOT a fulfilled prophecy.

The state of Israel was instigated by christian and jewish leaders who worked for decades to make this prediction come true in the late 19th century and early 20th century. Even Queen Victoria and Woodrow Wilson were both interested creating a state of Israel to fulfill the prophecy It's similar to writing the gospels decades after the Jesus dies and writing the story to work as a predicted prophecy.


Of course, some events couldn't be controlled by those leaders. It's a secular state instead of what was predicted and despite the prediction, Israel actually took decades to become as state not just a day.

Oh, and most people on this planet don't worship your silly storybook messiah.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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07-05-2015, 09:53 AM
RE: The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
(07-05-2015 09:29 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Oh, and most people on this planet don't worship your silly storybook messiah.

not to mention that calling him the Jewish Messiah is a bit grandiose since only a splinter group of Jews ever regarded him as a messiah

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07-05-2015, 09:58 AM
RE: The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
(07-05-2015 09:29 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  The state of Israel was instigated by christian and jewish leaders who worked for decades to make this prediction come true in the late 19th century and early 20th century. Even Queen Victoria and Woodrow Wilson were both interested creating a state of Israel to fulfill the prophecy It's similar to writing the gospels decades after the Jesus dies and writing the story to work as a predicted prophecy.
Zohar said that Muslims will own Palestine for 1300 years. You have EVIDENCE that Queen Victoria and Woodrow Wilson read Zohar?
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07-05-2015, 12:45 PM
RE: The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
(07-05-2015 09:29 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(06-05-2015 02:28 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The Bible predicts Israel to become a Jewish state following a very long diaspora. Scattering circa 120 CE, return to statehood 1948 CE. There are other examples, a people retaining their religion, ancient language for religious study, personhood/race for two thousand years in a great scattering--absolutely unprecedented, but not unheralded!

Another prophecy, six of them actually, says the Jewish Messiah will be worshipped worldwide by Gentiles.

Etc. Really top-notch stuff.

If I were to predict that the huge pine tree in the front yard would be cut down in three years and my husband, knowing this prediction, cuts it down three years from now, this is NOT a fulfilled prophecy.

The state of Israel was instigated by christian and jewish leaders who worked for decades to make this prediction come true in the late 19th century and early 20th century. Even Queen Victoria and Woodrow Wilson were both interested creating a state of Israel to fulfill the prophecy It's similar to writing the gospels decades after the Jesus dies and writing the story to work as a predicted prophecy.


Of course, some events couldn't be controlled by those leaders. It's a secular state instead of what was predicted and despite the prediction, Israel actually took decades to become as state not just a day.

Oh, and most people on this planet don't worship your silly storybook messiah.

I'm aware of the intervention, particularly with British and American Zionists and those supporting them, but THEY weren't aware that the prophecy fell upon May 15, 1948 until after...

...And I never said most people worship Jesus. I'm asking you which other Jewish person, who came between the destruction of the two Jerusalem Temples, is revered worldwide, as according to prophecy.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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