The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
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08-05-2015, 10:31 AM
RE: The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
(07-05-2015 12:46 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I would never say all Bible prophecies have been fulfilled--yet. If they had, you and I would be in Heaven or Hell rather than talking on an online forum.

So, you're saying the unfulfilled ones will be fulfilled at some point? Take these three consecutive verses in Ezekiel, where God makes two separate prophesies:

Quote:10 “Thus says the Lord God:

I will put an end to the wealth of Egypt, by the hand of Nebuchadrez′zar king of Babylon.
11 He and his people with him, the most terrible of the nations, shall be brought in to destroy the land; and they shall draw their swords against Egypt, and fill the land with the slain.
12 And I will dry up the Nile, and will sell the land into the hand of evil men;
I will bring desolation upon the land and everything in it, by the hand of foreigners;
I, the Lord, have spoken.

He first says that he will attack Egypt with Nebuchadrez′zar and he will dry up the Nile.

Now, I'm not going to nitpick about whether or not Nebuchadrez′zar really "put an end to the wealth of Egypt", but that type of claim has a sharp expiration date on it. Once Nebuchadrez′zar dies, that's that. There is no evidence that the Nile ever dried up, which puts it squarely into the category of "not fulfilled yet".

This means that the proper reading of those verses is God telling Egypt "I'm really mad at you! I'm going to send Nebuchadrez′zar to mess you up in the near future, and then will dry up your river thousands of years from now!".
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08-05-2015, 10:41 AM
RE: The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
(05-05-2015 10:06 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 02:45 AM)Dex Wrote:  So my background is Independent Baptist. My church set up a website in 2008 or 2009 and began posting various articles for members to read. One article was titled "The Bible's Proof", which proved very 'useful' for me in 2010 when I first started doubting. I found the article at its source over at wayoflife.org (a treasure trove of fundamentalist articles, including tons about evolution) here:

The Bible's Proof

I thought those of you interested in dissecting Christian apologetics might like to give it a read. I've copy-pasted the bullet points below, and I'll go ahead and write a response, not because I'm great or knowledgeable at counter-apolgetics but because I don't want to be a lazy poster.

1. The testimony of Jesus Christ proves that the Bible is the Word of God.

2. The Bible’s unique construction proves that it is the Word of God.

3. The confidence and sincerity of the Bible’s authors prove that it is the Word of God.

4. Fulfilled prophecy proves the Bible is the Word of God.

5. The Bible’s factualness and scientific accuracy prove that it is the Word of God.

6. The Bible’s candor proves that it is the Word of God.

7. The Bible’s indestructibility proves that it is the Word of God.

8. The Bible’s universal appeal proves that it is the Word of God.

9. The Bible’s doctrine of salvation proves it is the Word of God.


---

My (inadequate) responses to some of the points; feel free to skip:

1. First Point: A pervasive theme in Christianity is the overwhelming shittiness of human beings, so why is the fact that this applies also to the church "founders" a point for Biblical veracity? Besides, the real founder is supposedly Jesus, and he's friggin' perfect. So yeah, "When someone invents a religion, he glorifies its leaders..." definitely applies to Christianity.
Second Point: Hundreds of eyewitnesses whom we only know about because of the writings of one guy. Not really convincing, in my opinion.
Third Point: Any good storyteller is going to develop his or her characters, especially after they've experienced a significant event. So what? Do we have reliable documentation of the resurrection itself, as well as the behavior of Christians before and after?
Fourth Point: This is just a stupid point.

2. Given that the Bible was assembled meticulously by a bunch of people with a singular goal, this point doesn't mean much to me. Besides, given all the scholarly information on how the Bible was written and put together, I suspect that there's information in this point that is just wrong. But I've yet to study said scholarly information yet. On my to-do list.

3. This is mostly just using the Bible to prove the Bible.

4. Again, most of this is using the Bible to prove the Bible. The bit about Israel is intriguing to me, especially all the crazy shit that's happened to them and how they became a nation again in the '48, but I haven't seen anything while looking into that that convinced me the Bible was true.

5. This'll be a little longer. As expected, almost everything in this section comes from Job.

"The Bible says man is a sinner, and this is not difficult to confirm." Just, Facepalm

"Though the Bible contradicts evolutionary theories, it does not contradict any established scientific fact." Laughat

"Job said the earth is hung upon nothing." A mention of gravitational forces and the physics of orbiting objects would have been great.

"Job said the air has weight." No, he (sort of) said the wind has weight. He probably felt the wind pushing on him and saw it pushing the trees and concluded it has weight. He didn't say, "air, like everything, is made of atoms which have mass, and due to gravity, the air has weight." That would've been something.

"Job described the springs of the sea." I don't have anything to say here.

"Job understood that light has a way and that darkness has a place." Okay this one is just ridiculous. You're outright lying, at least looking at versions other than the KJV. They read like both light and darkness have a "place" where they reside. The King James Version reads, "Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof?" While I can see what the apologist would argue (that "way" means "journey" or "road", as "in the way" is often found in the Bible when describing a person moving from one place to another, and thus Job is saying light is moving) I think the NIV rewording has it right ("What is the way to the abode of light?") Based on the word "dwelleth", I think it's clearly asking how to get to where light comes from. That said, even if this is a demonstration that the author of Job understood that light moves and darkness is stationary, 1) that doesn't seem like a hard conclusion to reach, and 2) darkness isn't a thing...

"The Bible says that light creates wind" I don't see how this is what the specified verse is saying, but regardless, it's not exactly accurate to say "light creates wind" ya loons. Wind is caused by atmospheric pressure differentials, which can be caused by heat, which comes from the sun, yes; but heat isn't light. Facepalm

"Job describes the amazing hydrological cycle." All I'm seeing in these verses are rain and ascending vapours, not a description of "evaporation, condensation, atmospheric circulation, precipitation, run-off." While it would certainly be impressive if the author understood that water rises as vapor, I'm not really seeing a description of evaporation.

"The Bible says plants and animals reproduce after their kind." Well, plants and animals reproducing more of themselves was perfectly observable at the time, so it's hardly remarkable that they observed it, especially given that they were an agricultural society partly dependent upon that knowledge

"The Bible says the heavens cannot be measured and the stars are without number." A primitive human looking up at the vast sky and declaring that the heavens cannot be measured and the stars are beyond counting? Whaaat? Anyway, that's not what Genesis 22:17 says. It just says God will multiply Abraham's seed as the stars of the heaven. Assuming that doesn't mean stars reproduce sexually, I want to know where Abraham's 70,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 descendants are. Also, the Jeremiah verse says the foundations of the earth can't be searched out. Depending on what is meant by "foundations" here, I'm not sure that's true...

"The Bible says there are paths in the sea." What you're saying this is saying, I'm not sure it's saying that..

"The Bible says the life is in the blood." Not surprising in a religion centered around blood sacrifice.

Much of Job is very metaphorical, hard-to-follow jibber-jabber, so I'm not sure how pulling out the few words/phrases that can be twisted to superficially sound kind of like what we know now from science proves that the Bible is factually and scientifically accurate.

6. Already addressed in point 1. The holy text of a religion obsessed with how shitty man is talking about how shitty man is doesn't prove the stuff in the text really happened. And it doesn't mean the text is divinely inspired either. Tons of writings by humans about other humans, real or fictional, include the faults of their subjects.

7. An interesting historical sequence to study, but doesn't prove anything.

8. The text of the most popular religion ever is also the most widely distributed text? Whaaaat?

9. Well, you're missing some steps. All that proves is that the Bible is special in at least one way. First you've got to prove that God exists. Then you've got to prove that his method of salvation is salvation through grace. Then I could see you trying to use this argument to prove that the Bible was his true word. (This is ignoring all the Christian sects that believe works are necessary)

I'd recommend trimming all to # 4, to maintain focus. I would be open to deconversion if I've made a mistake, but fulfilled prophecy is not only a slam dunk for God, it's God's statement on His Bible:

1 Cor 15: "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures..."

1 Peter 1: "As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow."

......I'll just place this here quietly, and walk away...

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html

as well as this....the ultimate SLAM dunk as you like to call it.

The Bible claims that Jesus made the following comment:

Matthew 16:28

“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” BAMM! never happened, single handedly destroyed the religion of Christianity right there. Flex

Jesus also advised against going to court over someone who steals something and also told people not to store up stocks or reserves for the future. Clearly, he thought the end was very near.

Likewise, Paul advised followers not to marry and that the end time was near. In this scripture he obviously believes that some of the people he is talking to will still be alive at the second coming.

I Thessalonians 4: 16-18

“For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.”

The obvious fact is that the second coming was not forthcoming at that time, or even close to being near. The 2000-year delay is a strong piece of evidence that Christianity is a failed religion.

The following quote from Stephen L. Harris, Professor Emeritus of Humanities and Religious Studies at California State University- Sacramento, completes this point with a devastating argument. Remember that Jesus was a Jew who had no intention to deviate from the Hebrew scriptures:

“Jesus did not accomplish what Israel’s prophets said the Messiah was commissioned to do: He did not deliver the covenant people from their Gentile enemies, reassemble those scattered in the Diaspora, restore the Davidic kingdom, or establish universal peace (cf.Isa. 9:6–7; 11:7–12:16, etc.). Instead of freeing Jews from oppressors and thereby fulfilling God’s ancient promises—for land, nationhood, kingship, and blessing—Jesus died a “shameful” death, defeated by the very political powers the Messiah was prophesied to overcome. Indeed, the Hebrew prophets did not foresee that Israel’s savior would be executed as a common criminal by Gentiles, making Jesus’ crucifixion a “stumbling block” to scripturally literate Jews. (1 Cor.1:23)”

Jesus’ immediate followers, mostly his 12 disciples, probably did not immediately identify this failure, because after Jesus’ body was likely stolen and concealed, a rumor spread that Jesus had been resurrected from the dead. A sense of optimism overcame their grief about his execution and renewed some hope that he was a true messiah. If they had known then that there was to be no return in the near or long-term future, they likely would have abandoned any further activity. Despite this resurgence in their faith, they never agreed with Paul’s concept of Jesus as being divine. Anything written in the Bible to suggest that they did is probably a result of later editing by some of Paul’s followers. Such a belief would have been an exceptional departure from the Jewish faith.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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08-05-2015, 10:42 AM
RE: The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
(08-05-2015 10:31 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  He first says that he will attack Egypt with Nebuchadrez′zar and he will dry up the Nile.

Now, I'm not going to nitpick about whether or not Nebuchadrez′zar really "put an end to the wealth of Egypt", but that type of claim has a sharp expiration date on it. Once Nebuchadrez′zar dies, that's that. There is no evidence that the Nile ever dried up, which puts it squarely into the category of "not fulfilled yet".

This means that the proper reading of those verses is God telling Egypt "I'm really mad at you! I'm going to send Nebuchadrez′zar to mess you up in the near future, and then will dry up your river thousands of years from now!".
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/...rashi=true
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08-05-2015, 12:42 PM
RE: The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
(08-05-2015 10:09 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  For some, it made the new, redeemed Israel a sweeter and harder-fought-for haven.

You say that there is no reason to minimize the Shoah, but do you agree with this statement?

(08-05-2015 10:09 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The diaspora and the sufferings of the Jewish people were not only prophesied but parallel that of Jesus:

* Hated without a good reason / hated because they belong to God

* Takes the large brunt of anti-God rhetoric and hate

* Seen as lost or missing for an age and then returns/restored

* Etc.

Couple of things, Q
1) Hated without reason? The gospels paint jesus as being rather well liked by the masses. After all, it was mainly the Jewish elite who wanted him dead and sought to it, not the main populace. The general public in the stories seemed to like and respect him in general. How does this compare to entire nations hating the jews? Many of the christian nations hated the jews for their role in killing jesus as the bible claims. How does this compare to jesus being hated by a few of the total population of jews who actually had an axe to grind? The Jewish leaders had every reason to dislike jesus but almost no one else did. I fail to see how this even begins to encompass the suffering of the jews at the hands of mainly christians in the last 2000 years.

And if you are contemplating bringing up the Barabbas thing for hating jesus, the gospels (Matthew, Mark, or Luke) never actually say how many people there were in the crowd and it is quite reasonable to think that the sanhedron and other leaders could have stacked the "crowd" since the story specifically says that they were planning this. Which, frankly, is a bit odd considering they mention that jesus fed 4000+ people twice (in Mat and Mark, Luke and John only mention the 5000 but not the 4000) but omit this small but rather significant detail. Shoot, no crowd is even mentioned in John 18, it reads as if it is the Jewish leaders are the ones demanding for Barabbas and not the people. Why would this detail omitted if he was supposed to be forsaken by everyone when in fact, the only ones who actually mock him are the soldiers and some leaders. The general population was never mentioned. Again, if only a relatively few people hated jesus how does that compare to entire nations hating jews for being jews?

According to the story, Jesus was hated for what he was saying against the leadership and the jews are hated for killing him in a story. This hardly seems to be a fair comparison.

2) You say that they belong to god. In what sense? It could be interpreted in a couple different ways.
3) They are only seen as lost by those who wish them to be seen in that manner. Would you say that a Jew who settled in America willingly to be "lost" since they aren't in Israel? And if no, why would a Jew who immigrated anywhere else be lost?
4) What does "Etc." entail? This is pretty nebulous.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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08-05-2015, 02:40 PM
RE: The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
(08-05-2015 10:09 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(07-05-2015 07:43 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  I wonder if the bible prophesied that six million of his chosen people would be killed to bring about this "miracle"? Praise Jeebus I guess.

Q talks so nonchalantly about prophecies while ignoring the horrors that were not prophesied about. They're just Jews so I guess they don't count in Q's glory to Jeebus world.

We shouldn't ignore the Shoah, no. For some, it made the new, redeemed Israel a sweeter and harder-fought-for haven. There's no need to minimize the Holocaust in my eyes.

The diaspora and the sufferings of the Jewish people were not only prophesied but parallel that of Jesus:

Which bible scripture are you twisting to derive that from?

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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08-05-2015, 02:53 PM
RE: The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
(06-05-2015 02:28 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The Bible predicts Israel to become a Jewish state following a very long diaspora. Scattering circa 120 CE, return to statehood 1948 CE. There are other examples, a people retaining their religion, ancient language for religious study, personhood/race for two thousand years in a great scattering--absolutely unprecedented, but not unheralded!

Another prophecy, six of them actually, says the Jewish Messiah will be worshipped worldwide by Gentiles.

Etc. Really top-notch stuff.

If by 'top-notch' you mean 'vague and unproven', then ok.

There are no prophecies that are 'fulfilled' outside the Bible except by stretching the already vague wording.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-05-2015, 05:37 PM
RE: The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
Quote:And lets not forget this deadly snake, the regular Israeli Viper.


And deadliest of all....


[Image: Benjamin-Netanyahu.jpg]


the Likud viper.

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11-05-2015, 10:05 AM
RE: The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
(08-05-2015 10:31 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(07-05-2015 12:46 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I would never say all Bible prophecies have been fulfilled--yet. If they had, you and I would be in Heaven or Hell rather than talking on an online forum.

So, you're saying the unfulfilled ones will be fulfilled at some point? Take these three consecutive verses in Ezekiel, where God makes two separate prophesies:

Quote:10 “Thus says the Lord God:

I will put an end to the wealth of Egypt, by the hand of Nebuchadrez′zar king of Babylon.
11 He and his people with him, the most terrible of the nations, shall be brought in to destroy the land; and they shall draw their swords against Egypt, and fill the land with the slain.
12 And I will dry up the Nile, and will sell the land into the hand of evil men;
I will bring desolation upon the land and everything in it, by the hand of foreigners;
I, the Lord, have spoken.

He first says that he will attack Egypt with Nebuchadrez′zar and he will dry up the Nile.

Now, I'm not going to nitpick about whether or not Nebuchadrez′zar really "put an end to the wealth of Egypt", but that type of claim has a sharp expiration date on it. Once Nebuchadrez′zar dies, that's that. There is no evidence that the Nile ever dried up, which puts it squarely into the category of "not fulfilled yet".

This means that the proper reading of those verses is God telling Egypt "I'm really mad at you! I'm going to send Nebuchadrez′zar to mess you up in the near future, and then will dry up your river thousands of years from now!".

And?

1) There are similar verses describing two advents of Christ, also years apart.

2) That's the beauty, in part, of God's Word. It has information of epic import for many different times.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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11-05-2015, 10:09 AM
RE: The Bible's Proof (from a fundamentalist site)
(08-05-2015 02:53 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-05-2015 02:28 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The Bible predicts Israel to become a Jewish state following a very long diaspora. Scattering circa 120 CE, return to statehood 1948 CE. There are other examples, a people retaining their religion, ancient language for religious study, personhood/race for two thousand years in a great scattering--absolutely unprecedented, but not unheralded!

Another prophecy, six of them actually, says the Jewish Messiah will be worshipped worldwide by Gentiles.

Etc. Really top-notch stuff.

If by 'top-notch' you mean 'vague and unproven', then ok.

There are no prophecies that are 'fulfilled' outside the Bible except by stretching the already vague wording.

Jesus was to be betrayed by a close associate with a kiss on the cheek for 30 pieces of silver. He was to be born in Bethlehem uniquely of a woman but not a mere man, and also to be taken to and from Egypt without giving consent, and to be called a "Nazarene" (which I'm putting in quotes since it's a play on "righteous branch" in Hebrew) etc. He was to rise from the dead three days after His sufferings began.

You can make a far stronger case that the Bible was written post hoc than you can by saying the prophecies are "vague".

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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