The Bible teaches whatever you pretend it teaches
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09-04-2017, 08:35 AM
RE: The Bible teaches whatever you pretend it teaches
(08-04-2017 02:45 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  Many Christians tell us that Jesus eliminated the Old Testament teachings. I once sat down and went systematically through the 4 gospels looking to see what Jesus actually taught as far as the Do's and Don't Do's, the strictly moral and ethical teachings of Jesus. It is surprisingly slim. And many of his commands are utterly ignored by Christians. His commands about marriage and divorce for example. Praying in private. And selling all you have and giving to the poor. When one extracts these moral teachings from the Bible, it isn't really much of a moral code. and some of it is obviously objectionable to even the most fervent Christians.

Some day, I need to do this again, and cut and paste all these Do's and Don'ts into one nice file so the less than comprehensive nature of all of his commands can be examined.

There isn't much, so if one needs a comprehensive moral code, cherry picking gospel commands of Jesus won't get you there really. Much of what is there isn't new, and what is new isn't something anybody wants to follow.

You won't get coherent answers because of the shell game of what kind of command it was, which again goes right back to the topic at hand.

If you point out things that Jesus said that many Christians don't want to do, they'll claim the command in question was a SPECIFIC command to just those people. I've brought up the "sell your stuff and give to the poor" before and was told by the leaders of the church I was in that this account was just for that specific instance because of a need. When Paul told the Corinthians or whoever the fuck it was they shouldn't marry, again....he was talking JUST to them for that specific time.

Of course that leads to the obvious question of "Ok then how can you tell the difference between commands for then and commands for now?" And the answer is obviously....you can't. If you're going with that line of thinking, then that means NOTHING in the bible is for us because guess what, all of it was written to specific people. None of that shit was written with people in 2017 in mind.

Same problem with the OT; you point out the horrible shit in the OT, you'll get the "Jesus did away with the OT" (not really). Ok....but then they turn around and use OT verses to preach against abortion and gay marriage, and I was always taught the OT was for "our learning". None of that made any sense to me, because even if you give the benefit of the doubt that Jebuz did away with the OT, it's still supposed to be the same god and that god was a major dickhole.
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09-04-2017, 08:39 AM
RE: The Bible teaches whatever you pretend it teaches
Haha. Jesus had to get rid of the rules in the OT (apart from the stuff about gays of course) because God used to be an immoral scumbag. It throws their objective morality nonsense right out the window if they go down this path.

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09-04-2017, 08:49 AM
RE: The Bible teaches whatever you pretend it teaches
I'll have to check with God Bob about this.
Perhaps we should have ''Bible Study" when the Cow Protection Club meets ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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09-04-2017, 10:49 AM
RE: The Bible teaches whatever you pretend it teaches
(08-04-2017 11:09 AM)mordant Wrote:  In line with my remark on another thread that holy books are vague and can serve as a template for almost any needed interpretation of the moment, I offer for your consideration this brief article which affirms this unintentionally and without irony, and calls for a communist revolution based on what scripture clearly and obviously, in the eyes of this author, teaches.

I rather suspect that most Christians -- certainly many -- will have a major malfunction with this because they are equally convinced that the Bible teaches self reliance and unbridled capitalism and trickle-down economics. People see what they want to see, I guess.

What this author is actually doing is just a version of what many are doing today -- seeing the growing systemic wealth inequality in the world and responding to it as unacceptable. One response is to move in either a more socialistic or communistic direction (dear reader, if you are unaware that these two are quite different, it is time to educate yourself) , or, to go way right and blame "globalism" for undermining "national interests" which are often tied to some form of tribalism, usually in the West, covert or overt white supremacy. So we end up with (in order of how influential they appear to be so far) authoritarian nationalism, often with xenophobic themes; socialism (either social democracy or actual socialism); or communism.

That is the political side, but I'm fascinated the facile way in which this author can enlist the Holy Babble to support straight up Karl Marx communism as readily as Christian fundamentalists have generally enlisted it to support unbridled capitalism and conventional elitist Republican ideation. In many ways these can be regarded as polar opposites, and yet you have people on both sides of this issue appealing to what they see as the plain meaning of scripture as a treasure-trove of divine approval for their ideology.

Is there anything the Bible couldn't be construed to be in favor of? After all, it has been claimed by people that if you read it "correctly" it supports mass suicide, prophesies rescue of the elect by alien spaceship hiding behind a comet, is compatible with a narrative of the lost tribe of Israel in America, decrees that old men can take child brides, and so much more.

I maintain that any holy book is vague by design so that it can be used as one wishes. These days I find the passage that condemns those who "wrest the scriptures to their own destruction" as hilarious, because "wresting" is what everyone does. (For those who don't know, "wrest" is Elizabethan English for "twist", ir is the root of the modern "wrestle", but I rather fancy archaic words like that, they seem so evocative).

The thing I hate is that all these white anarchists socialists and eco warrior wankers all have dreadlocks and they look ridiculous especially the men, if you are not black, dreadlocks look stupid and ridiculous, like you're trying too hard, uggh
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09-04-2017, 11:49 AM
RE: The Bible teaches whatever you pretend it teaches
Well my core question was, is there anything the Bible couldn't be construed to be in favor of, and I am taking it from everyone's responses, that with the possible exception of the generic existence of god, the answer is no, the Bible doesn't consistently come out in favor or disfavor of anything. It was really sort of a mind game / challenge.

Even when it comes to the axiomatic assumption that god exists, there is no coherent concept in scripture of exactly who god is. Is he the angry, vengeful war-god of the Hebrews? The kindly, avuncular, and perhaps slightly senile sky daddy? The meek and lowly Lamb of God? The fiery apocalyptic preacher chasing people out of the temple with whips and angrily cursing fig trees that aren't even in season? Something else entirely? Even there, you can cherry pick an awful lot.
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09-04-2017, 01:06 PM (This post was last modified: 09-04-2017 01:11 PM by Cheerful Charlie.)
RE: The Bible teaches whatever you pretend it teaches
(09-04-2017 08:35 AM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  
(08-04-2017 02:45 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  Many Christians tell us that Jesus eliminated the Old Testament teachings. I once sat down and went systematically through the 4 gospels looking to see what Jesus actually taught as far as the Do's and Don't Do's, the strictly moral and ethical teachings of Jesus. It is surprisingly slim. And many of his commands are utterly ignored by Christians. His commands about marriage and divorce for example. Praying in private. And selling all you have and giving to the poor. When one extracts these moral teachings from the Bible, it isn't really much of a moral code. and some of it is obviously objectionable to even the most fervent Christians.

Some day, I need to do this again, and cut and paste all these Do's and Don'ts into one nice file so the less than comprehensive nature of all of his commands can be examined.

There isn't much, so if one needs a comprehensive moral code, cherry picking gospel commands of Jesus won't get you there really. Much of what is there isn't new, and what is new isn't something anybody wants to follow.

You won't get coherent answers because of the shell game of what kind of command it was, which again goes right back to the topic at hand.

If you point out things that Jesus said that many Christians don't want to do, they'll claim the command in question was a SPECIFIC command to just those people. I've brought up the "sell your stuff and give to the poor" before and was told by the leaders of the church I was in that this account was just for that specific instance because of a need. When Paul told the Corinthians or whoever the fuck it was they shouldn't marry, again....he was talking JUST to them for that specific time.

Of course that leads to the obvious question of "Ok then how can you tell the difference between commands for then and commands for now?" And the answer is obviously....you can't. If you're going with that line of thinking, then that means NOTHING in the bible is for us because guess what, all of it was written to specific people. None of that shit was written with people in 2017 in mind.

Same problem with the OT; you point out the horrible shit in the OT, you'll get the "Jesus did away with the OT" (not really). Ok....but then they turn around and use OT verses to preach against abortion and gay marriage, and I was always taught the OT was for "our learning". None of that made any sense to me, because even if you give the benefit of the doubt that Jebuz did away with the OT, it's still supposed to be the same god and that god was a major dickhole.

Yup. That's what the good Christians do. Of course the idea of selling all you had and giving to the poor was to not be encumbered with property when the coming of the Kingdom of God hit, which was to be soon, soon, soon. Jesus was wrong about that. "You cannot serve God an Mammon" et al. Pointing that out is the next step. Of course it doesn't work with the more fanatical Christians, but for others, it starts them down the road to critical thinking. Again, though, what Jesus directly taught was actually kind of meagre. and aimed at an end that never happened as promised.

For those who value truth and facts over superstition and nonsense, this is a powerful realization. The whole thrust of Jesus' teachings were based on an idea that was false. His moral teachings became obsolete 1900 years ago when "this generation" did not see Jesus coming back to Earth with his angels in the clouds of heaven. This so many of his teachings have been abandoned b his followers.

What little is left was not new, and was the same basic ideas as any moral thinker of ancient eras, Buddha, Confucious, Socrates, Democritas et al.

Asking the fundies and evangelicals why Jesus proposed so many bad ideas to his followers, such as sell all you have, that they have no intention of following is always interesting. So the question is, what teaching of Jesus are to be followed and which do not have to be followed. I can guarantee you that almost no Christians have done what I did, go through the gospels and systematically read just what Jesus did command in all it's meagre glory.

Just why did Jesus tell his followers to sell all they have? What was the point? This is a question that demands an answer form those who want us to believe in their Bible Jesus.

When I shake my ignore file, I can hear them buzzing!

Cheerful Charlie
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09-04-2017, 01:19 PM
RE: The Bible teaches whatever you pretend it teaches
(09-04-2017 08:39 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Haha. Jesus had to get rid of the rules in the OT (apart from the stuff about gays of course) because God used to be an immoral scumbag. It throws their objective morality nonsense right out the window if they go down this path.


Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
It was of course, Paul that told us the old laws of the OT are no longer needed by Christians. When did Paul outrank Jesus? Why did Jesus tell his followers that if it wasn't really true? Given that, can we trust anything Jesus supposedly said?

When I shake my ignore file, I can hear them buzzing!

Cheerful Charlie
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