The Big Bang
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29-05-2011, 01:53 PM
 
RE: The Big Bang
(25-05-2011 04:57 PM)captgalectro Wrote:  Has not the big bang turned into a religion? It has the same pratfall in that once upon a time something came out of nothing: god, a singularity, and for some reason created everything else.

No, some people are pretty dogmatic about it, but that doesn't make it a religion. The environmentalism movement has many more religious characteristics than the Big Bang Theory.
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29-05-2011, 02:42 PM
 
RE: The Big Bang
(29-05-2011 01:50 PM)Indoril Wrote:  Heres my piece on the BBT:

Its the same as Creationist thinking.

Yes, I went there. Many of the scientific community firmly believe (know) that this is what happened, just as the creationists believe that some invisible Sky Daddy appeared out of nowhere, and just happened to have made everything.
...
The way everyone is portraying it is the same way creationists are portraying their own theories, with fanaticism.
...
My evidence towards this development? Simple.
Scientist: "This is what happened. This is what happened. This is what happened."
Creationist: "This is what happened. This is what happened. This is what happened."
...
The Big Bang Theory is starting to look more like a religion, people, which is making me question it like the good little atheist that I am. Its best to stop repeating old theories, and actually finding out for ourselves. We do NOT know what happened, but we can guess at it. If you claim that the BBT is factual, your going to get laughed at. Why? Because the word "THEORY" is stuck right in it. If it was factual, then the word would not be in there, correct?

I'm sorry, but I wholeheartedly disagree with all of this. Undecided

What the scientific community claim to know is what has been empirically proven (through observation, experimentation and repetition). Any discovery is open to question given lack of evidence or evidence to the contrary.

The scientist quote should be more like this: “This is what happened, here is why.”

Sure enough, it’s not always as easy to explain “why” as it is to explain what “is”, but if you are truly interested, the “why” is out there. My recommendation to the interested.

When you say we don’t know what happened, you are right that we don’t know everything, but that doesn’t mean it’s all just a hypothesis people invented through logical induction. I just wrote about this (evidence for TBB) in the other big bang thread (The Very Begining) so forgive me for not repeating it here. Confused

About the word “theory”; in science “theory” pretty much means “explanation”, what you’re thinking of would be called a “hypothesis”. I guess it can be somewhat confusing when the words are used so lightly. The theory of gravity would be an example of a scientific theory. String theory would be an example of a scientific hypothesis.

@Prokofiev Don't get me started on environmentalism and you deniers, that's a whole other discussion! Tongue
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29-05-2011, 02:46 PM
 
RE: The Big Bang
(29-05-2011 02:42 PM)helland Wrote:  @Prokofiev Don't get me started on environmentalism and you deniers, that's a whole other discussion! Tongue

And you deniers? Interesting phrasing you used there. Is it not possible to critique followers of an ideology while agreeing with most of their positions (in a strictly scientific sense)?
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29-05-2011, 03:15 PM
 
RE: The Big Bang
(29-05-2011 02:46 PM)Prokofiev Wrote:  
(29-05-2011 02:42 PM)helland Wrote:  @Prokofiev Don't get me started on environmentalism and you deniers, that's a whole other discussion! Tongue

And you deniers? Interesting phrasing you used there. Is it not possible to critique followers of an ideology while agreeing with most of their positions (in a strictly scientific sense)?

I'm sorry for my bad use of words. I just didn't want to derail the thread off topic, while also noting that there's an interesting discussion right there.
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30-05-2011, 08:34 AM (This post was last modified: 30-05-2011 08:38 AM by captgalectro.)
RE: The Big Bang
It all starts with the silly ass question, "Where did we come from?". It's like asking how many grains of sand there are, or how many stars? We don't know, nor will humanity ever know. Still we spend billions of dollars a year, and untold man hours on propagating the silliness of religon or the big bang. We might as well spend the money on counting the grains of sand, we'll get the same result.
(29-05-2011 01:50 PM)Indoril Wrote:  Heres my piece on the BBT:

Its the same as Creationist thinking.

Yes, I went there. Many of the scientific community firmly believe (know) that this is what happened, just as the creationists believe that some invisible Sky Daddy appeared out of nowhere, and just happened to have made everything. Look, I'm not as intelligent as one one the scientists, nor do I claim as such. For all I know, the BBT is factual, but the way people are arguing it these days does make me wonder.

The way everyone is portraying it is the same way creationists are portraying their own theories, with fanaticism. I've already had to defend myself on all sides during a youtube vid, and I'll most likely do it here. Just bare in mind, the way your portraying the theory is pretty much the same as a creationist is with theirs.

My evidence towards this development? Simple.
Scientist: "This is what happened. This is what happened. This is what happened."
Creationist: "This is what happened. This is what happened. This is what happened."

See the pattern yet? And when I call on both, I get bombarded with "Oh your not an atheist, your a creationist" when I call on an atheist who firmly believes in the BBT. I hear a lot more colorful language from the creationist side, though, which always makes me laugh.

The Big Bang Theory is starting to look more like a religion, people, which is making me question it like the good little atheist that I am. Its best to stop repeating old theories, and actually finding out for ourselves. We do NOT know what happened, but we can guess at it. If you claim that the BBT is factual, your going to get laughed at. Why? Because the word "THEORY" is stuck right in it. If it was factual, then the word would not be in there, correct?

I agree totally.
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30-05-2011, 09:28 AM
RE: The Big Bang
(30-05-2011 08:34 AM)captgalectro Wrote:  It all starts with the silly ass question, "Where did we come from?". It's like asking how many grains of sand there are, or how many stars? We don't know, nor will humanity ever know. Still we spend billions of dollars a year, and untold man hours on propagating the silliness of religon or the big bang. We might as well spend the money on counting the grains of sand, we'll get the same result.

You seem pretty quick to say that it is impossible. Studying the universe is far from a fruitless endeavor(such as counting grains of sand). Scientists studied, took notes, saw interesting patterns, did more research, saw more interesting patterns, and after lots of data had been collected, formed a theory that fir the data the best. After doing a little bit more science after that, we get the BBT. And with the BBT, we can accurately view new aspects of our universe, allowing for new technology.

That's the thing about new discoveries. You may be wondering what good they do, how that piece of information can be put to use, but with a more complete picture of how our world works, we can find more efficient, or even completely new, ways to do stuff. What good is the heliocentric model? Regardless of if the earth goes around the sun, or the sun around the earth, we are still on earth and it make no difference to us. People who had that mind set several centuries ago probably didn't think about satellites or colonizing Mars. And yet here we are; doing what would be impossible if we still used the geocentric model. And I know that there are many new things we can do with the BBT as a model of the universe.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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30-05-2011, 01:30 PM
RE: The Big Bang
(30-05-2011 09:28 AM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  
(30-05-2011 08:34 AM)captgalectro Wrote:  It all starts with the silly ass question, "Where did we come from?". It's like asking how many grains of sand there are, or how many stars? We don't know, nor will humanity ever know. Still we spend billions of dollars a year, and untold man hours on propagating the silliness of religon or the big bang. We might as well spend the money on counting the grains of sand, we'll get the same result.

You seem pretty quick to say that it is impossible. Studying the universe is far from a fruitless endeavor(such as counting grains of sand). Scientists studied, took notes, saw interesting patterns, did more research, saw more interesting patterns, and after lots of data had been collected, formed a theory that fir the data the best. After doing a little bit more science after that, we get the BBT. And with the BBT, we can accurately view new aspects of our universe, allowing for new technology.

That's the thing about new discoveries. You may be wondering what good they do, how that piece of information can be put to use, but with a more complete picture of how our world works, we can find more efficient, or even completely new, ways to do stuff. What good is the heliocentric model? Regardless of if the earth goes around the sun, or the sun around the earth, we are still on earth and it make no difference to us. People who had that mind set several centuries ago probably didn't think about satellites or colonizing Mars. And yet here we are; doing what would be impossible if we still used the geocentric model. And I know that there are many new things we can do with the BBT as a model of the universe.
Don't get me wrong, satellites are good stuff, good science. I don't think the bbt has anything to do with science. When they seen the red shift of galaxies, they made the erroneous assumption that the galaxies were flying away from each other. Then they assumed the singularity, the expansion, and now there into illogical dark energy, and dark matter to try and explain things. http:galaxyspin.thecomicseries.com Somewhere common sense has to come in.
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31-05-2011, 12:05 AM
RE: The Big Bang
Watch Lawrence Krauss's damn Lecture!

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo

"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do." - Voltaire
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31-05-2011, 02:44 AM
RE: The Big Bang
(30-05-2011 01:30 PM)captgalectro Wrote:  Somewhere common sense has to come in.
I going to agree on you to a certain extend...

I think the research done at LHC is great. It's a cool installation and an awesome concept.

But that's about it for me...
Cool, awesome and great are adjectives and adjectives don't cure diseases, make our life easier or solve world problems.

What I would like to say is this. Say that the research at LHC proves BBT right (or worse wrong). Cool! Champagne-corks will fly! We finally unlocked the secret of our existence. And then? Where are the benefits for humanity? Knowledge is nice and I wholeheartedly encourage it. But having knowledge only for the sake of knowing makes my seriously sceptical.

Would the world agree if the same around of money was spend on the research of whether burning candles at the chapel of virgin Mary has some benefits.

I really which the LHC advocacy project could state if there are some benefits for mankind other then enlarging our knowledge. As long as they can't prove that it will, we should be at least sceptical.

on the topic of whether BBT is a religion...
We have supporters and disbelievers here... Theists and atheists if you want to call it that way.
Why don't the atheists debate the theists like we do with other religions to find out who has the best case? Smile

The world upside down!

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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01-06-2011, 07:12 AM
RE: The Big Bang
(31-05-2011 12:05 AM)daemonowner Wrote:  Watch Lawrence Krauss's damn Lecture!

I tried watching the lecture. I tried reading the bible. I came to the same conclusion on both. What a bunch of manure. Sorry there is no giant energy magnet making galaxies go faster and faster. Use the same intellect that you used to become an atheist on the big bang and you can will see how it reeks.
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