The Big Think Creationism debate
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
18-10-2013, 11:01 PM
RE: The Big Think Creationism debate
(18-10-2013 07:13 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  
(18-10-2013 06:14 PM)DemonicLemon Wrote:  I have seen a video that explains the history of god in about 15 minutes, in "Why I am No Longer A Christian", around 22 parts in the video series, this being one of the topics.





But I found there are other videos describing the historie of this god fellow here. El Elyon, Jehova, different gods eventually merged into one, which explains why he has many names and his erratic personality.
Thats the one! You my friend might be interested in some Joseph Campbell videos. Look him up, he's a mythologists. He makes the religious myths actually inspiring.
In the Garden of Eden, Adam had complete access to God. He walked with him in the garden. However when he rebelled against God he was thrust out of Gods presence and as a fallen creature lost the knowledge of God. Over time foolish superstitions and vain beliefs about the creator the universe developed. Even the knowledge that there is only one God was lost. However even though these revelations of God are lost to the generation following, one thing remains constant. That is the human conscience. Evolution has no explanation for the human conscience. If we have evolved from apes then why should we feel guilt, why should we have an inbuilt concept of right and wrong?

So even the human mind which has no direct revelation of God and lives in all manner of vain superstitions and beliefs which imprison him, even they have a conscience. So to the extent that they follow the dictates of their conscience and deny the bad side and do what they understand to be good, the Lord approves and by his grace offers additional insights to his nature and character.

For example, Abram worshipped the moon god. Yet because he was a righteous man and believed God's promise and obeyed his command, God revealed to him marvellous plans that he had for Abraham and that he would make of the descendents of Abraham a great nation through which all the nations of the world would be saved.

Catholics however do not preach the gospel to those who are just. We preach the gospel to the sick and the sinner so that they may know the one who alone has the power to forgive sins and bring them into eternal life.

The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-10-2013, 11:07 PM
RE: The Big Think Creationism debate
(18-10-2013 07:13 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  
(18-10-2013 06:14 PM)DemonicLemon Wrote:  I have seen a video that explains the history of god in about 15 minutes, in "Why I am No Longer A Christian", around 22 parts in the video series, this being one of the topics.





But I found there are other videos describing the historie of this god fellow here. El Elyon, Jehova, different gods eventually merged into one, which explains why he has many names and his erratic personality.
Thats the one! You my friend might be interested in some Joseph Campbell videos. Look him up, he's a mythologists. He makes the religious myths actually inspiring.
My last post was to indicate that yes certainly we do see a development of the fullness of the knowledge of God and his nature and his truth. This was clearly evident at the Vatican 2 council of the church which showed even more details than were known before about who and what God is. By now in these last days our knowledge of God is very well developed but if we can be bothered to investigate what ancient man understood about God then of course we are going to find primitive ideas about God and gods, mixed with superstitions and myths. Even in Christs day the Samaritans were a very superstitious people who worshipped their pagan gods but were superstitious that the god of the land Yahweh would not bless them if they did not incorporate him in a big way into their practices of worship.
Even in the earliest times of Ancient Israel the people mingled the pure worship of the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob with the vile gods of the land such as Molech, Ashtoreth and Baal.

So really these videos really don't add much to the argument.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-10-2013, 04:16 PM
RE: The Big Think Creationism debate
(18-10-2013 11:07 PM)excubitor Wrote:  
(18-10-2013 07:13 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  Thats the one! You my friend might be interested in some Joseph Campbell videos. Look him up, he's a mythologists. He makes the religious myths actually inspiring.
My last post was to indicate that yes certainly we do see a development of the fullness of the knowledge of God and his nature and his truth. This was clearly evident at the Vatican 2 council of the church which showed even more details than were known before about who and what God is. By now in these last days our knowledge of God is very well developed but if we can be bothered to investigate what ancient man understood about God then of course we are going to find primitive ideas about God and gods, mixed with superstitions and myths. Even in Christs day the Samaritans were a very superstitious people who worshipped their pagan gods but were superstitious that the god of the land Yahweh would not bless them if they did not incorporate him in a big way into their practices of worship.
Even in the earliest times of Ancient Israel the people mingled the pure worship of the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob with the vile gods of the land such as Molech, Ashtoreth and Baal.

So really these videos really don't add much to the argument.
How can you tell what is and what isn't myth? They all seem very similar. Can you honestly say that you have the right idea of god? Why does god say to not have other gods before him? Could there have been other gods?

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-10-2013, 06:30 PM
RE: The Big Think Creationism debate
(18-10-2013 11:07 PM)excubitor Wrote:  
(18-10-2013 07:13 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  Thats the one! You my friend might be interested in some Joseph Campbell videos. Look him up, he's a mythologists. He makes the religious myths actually inspiring.
My last post was to indicate that yes certainly we do see a development of the fullness of the knowledge of God and his nature and his truth. This was clearly evident at the Vatican 2 council of the church which showed even more details than were known before about who and what God is. By now in these last days our knowledge of God is very well developed but if we can be bothered to investigate what ancient man understood about God then of course we are going to find primitive ideas about God and gods, mixed with superstitions and myths. Even in Christs day the Samaritans were a very superstitious people who worshipped their pagan gods but were superstitious that the god of the land Yahweh would not bless them if they did not incorporate him in a big way into their practices of worship.
Even in the earliest times of Ancient Israel the people mingled the pure worship of the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob with the vile gods of the land such as Molech, Ashtoreth and Baal.

So really these videos really don't add much to the argument.

This just sounds like a poor explaination to the streamlining of the gods, easily comaprable to the streamlining of The elder Scrolls ser3ies of video games.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-10-2013, 07:06 PM
RE: The Big Think Creationism debate
(19-10-2013 06:30 PM)DemonicLemon Wrote:  
(18-10-2013 11:07 PM)excubitor Wrote:  My last post was to indicate that yes certainly we do see a development of the fullness of the knowledge of God and his nature and his truth. This was clearly evident at the Vatican 2 council of the church which showed even more details than were known before about who and what God is. By now in these last days our knowledge of God is very well developed but if we can be bothered to investigate what ancient man understood about God then of course we are going to find primitive ideas about God and gods, mixed with superstitions and myths. Even in Christs day the Samaritans were a very superstitious people who worshipped their pagan gods but were superstitious that the god of the land Yahweh would not bless them if they did not incorporate him in a big way into their practices of worship.
Even in the earliest times of Ancient Israel the people mingled the pure worship of the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob with the vile gods of the land such as Molech, Ashtoreth and Baal.

So really these videos really don't add much to the argument.

This just sounds like a poor explaination to the streamlining of the gods, easily comaprable to the streamlining of The elder Scrolls ser3ies of video games.
Well if that's the case
God must have
( •_•)>⌐■-■
(⌐■_■)
Evolved

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-10-2013, 07:31 PM
RE: The Big Think Creationism debate
(18-10-2013 11:01 PM)excubitor Wrote:  If we have evolved from apes then why should we feel guilt, why should we have an inbuilt concept of right and wrong?
Humans did evolve from primates, so did the other apes, together we are all apes.
Catholics often feel guilt because they are taught to feel guilty for being human, for having natural sexual urges. it is a common brainwashing technique to build a trusted and dependent relationship. You depend on the church.
Some people have moral beliefs, some people don't, just as some people believe in gods and some don't, just as some people believe in alien abductions and some don't. Why, well we have an ability to sense our environment and an ability to try and make sense of it. We often come up with imaginative yet often false reasonings.

(18-10-2013 11:01 PM)excubitor Wrote:  The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
This sounds like a brainwashed mantra to me. I don't think it does you any favours to chant this to atheists.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-10-2013, 10:29 PM
RE: The Big Think Creationism debate
(19-10-2013 04:16 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  
(18-10-2013 11:07 PM)excubitor Wrote:  My last post was to indicate that yes certainly we do see a development of the fullness of the knowledge of God and his nature and his truth. This was clearly evident at the Vatican 2 council of the church which showed even more details than were known before about who and what God is. By now in these last days our knowledge of God is very well developed but if we can be bothered to investigate what ancient man understood about God then of course we are going to find primitive ideas about God and gods, mixed with superstitions and myths. Even in Christs day the Samaritans were a very superstitious people who worshipped their pagan gods but were superstitious that the god of the land Yahweh would not bless them if they did not incorporate him in a big way into their practices of worship.
Even in the earliest times of Ancient Israel the people mingled the pure worship of the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob with the vile gods of the land such as Molech, Ashtoreth and Baal.

So really these videos really don't add much to the argument.
How can you tell what is and what isn't myth? They all seem very similar. Can you honestly say that you have the right idea of god? Why does god say to not have other gods before him? Could there have been other gods?
I believe that the other gods of the pagans are demons. This is just my opinion though and I do not believe that the church has given a definitive ruling on that point. The God of Judaism is the same God as we worship however they have some misconceptions and distortions about God which effectively means that they are not worshiping the one God in spirit and truth which is the manner in which the apostles command that he is to be worshiped.
There is a large amount of debate as to whether Allah is the one true God which Catholics worship. This was somewhat ambiguous in Vatican 2 Nostra Aetate.
I do know that when Arabs convert they continue to call God Allah and they renounce the misconceptions that they formerly held about Allah. I have no doubt that if we were to interview these converts they would not say that they had no knowledge of Allah prior to their baptism as Catholics.

So I am divided on the issue but I would have to say that if Allah is the one true God then there must be a pretty powerful demon in the Islamic world which enables knowledge of him to be so grossly distorted in the religion of Islam.

In the end, even the word God is of pagan Germanic origins and even shares the root with a similar Sanskrit word. So when the pagans convert it is permissable for them to retain concepts of their former gods which are compatible with Christianity. Often these insights from paganism have enriched our awareness of certain aspects of the one true God, although this notion too is highly controversial and many Christians would deny this.

As for picking myth from truth. That is a little harder. I guess the account of creation of the Hebrews is the most successful account which has been endorsed by an entire nation of the Jews and then by all the nations of the world as they converted to Christianity. The myths on the other hand did not endure. This is a mark of the divine word of God. Myths are believed for short periods of time by a certain nation here or there. The divine word of God is however an account which is believed universally in all countries of the world, and his word endures for the long generations.

Take the Myth of Marduk. This myth does not have the same credentials. It was never believed universally, nor has the myth endured as a belief system for a short period of time when the Babylonians were supreme in the world. But then it died out and nobody today believes in it.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-10-2013, 12:06 AM
RE: The Big Think Creationism debate
(19-10-2013 10:29 PM)excubitor Wrote:  
(19-10-2013 04:16 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  How can you tell what is and what isn't myth? They all seem very similar. Can you honestly say that you have the right idea of god? Why does god say to not have other gods before him? Could there have been other gods?
I believe that the other gods of the pagans are demons. This is just my opinion though and I do not believe that the church has given a definitive ruling on that point. The God of Judaism is the same God as we worship however they have some misconceptions and distortions about God which effectively means that they are not worshiping the one God in spirit and truth which is the manner in which the apostles command that he is to be worshiped.
There is a large amount of debate as to whether Allah is the one true God which Catholics worship. This was somewhat ambiguous in Vatican 2 Nostra Aetate.
I do know that when Arabs convert they continue to call God Allah and they renounce the misconceptions that they formerly held about Allah. I have no doubt that if we were to interview these converts they would not say that they had no knowledge of Allah prior to their baptism as Catholics.

So I am divided on the issue but I would have to say that if Allah is the one true God then there must be a pretty powerful demon in the Islamic world which enables knowledge of him to be so grossly distorted in the religion of Islam.

In the end, even the word God is of pagan Germanic origins and even shares the root with a similar Sanskrit word. So when the pagans convert it is permissable for them to retain concepts of their former gods which are compatible with Christianity. Often these insights from paganism have enriched our awareness of certain aspects of the one true God, although this notion too is highly controversial and many Christians would deny this.

As for picking myth from truth. That is a little harder. I guess the account of creation of the Hebrews is the most successful account which has been endorsed by an entire nation of the Jews and then by all the nations of the world as they converted to Christianity. The myths on the other hand did not endure. This is a mark of the divine word of God. Myths are believed for short periods of time by a certain nation here or there. The divine word of God is however an account which is believed universally in all countries of the world, and his word endures for the long generations.

Take the Myth of Marduk. This myth does not have the same credentials. It was never believed universally, nor has the myth endured as a belief system for a short period of time when the Babylonians were supreme in the world. But then it died out and nobody today believes in it.
It seems to be a little troubling. Would you doubt that the christian god was more popularized and spread further since Emperor Constantine witnessed a miracle of the christian god that aided him in battle? This miracle and victory made Christianity to be the dominate religion of the Roman empire. Thus bringing the age of the Holy Roman empire and a lineage of kings who are said to have divine right to rule. They too would also suppress other religions. What if Constantine interpreted this miracle as a different gods favor?

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-10-2013, 02:17 AM
RE: The Big Think Creationism debate
(20-10-2013 12:06 AM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  
(19-10-2013 10:29 PM)excubitor Wrote:  I believe that the other gods of the pagans are demons. This is just my opinion though and I do not believe that the church has given a definitive ruling on that point. The God of Judaism is the same God as we worship however they have some misconceptions and distortions about God which effectively means that they are not worshiping the one God in spirit and truth which is the manner in which the apostles command that he is to be worshiped.
There is a large amount of debate as to whether Allah is the one true God which Catholics worship. This was somewhat ambiguous in Vatican 2 Nostra Aetate.
I do know that when Arabs convert they continue to call God Allah and they renounce the misconceptions that they formerly held about Allah. I have no doubt that if we were to interview these converts they would not say that they had no knowledge of Allah prior to their baptism as Catholics.

So I am divided on the issue but I would have to say that if Allah is the one true God then there must be a pretty powerful demon in the Islamic world which enables knowledge of him to be so grossly distorted in the religion of Islam.

In the end, even the word God is of pagan Germanic origins and even shares the root with a similar Sanskrit word. So when the pagans convert it is permissable for them to retain concepts of their former gods which are compatible with Christianity. Often these insights from paganism have enriched our awareness of certain aspects of the one true God, although this notion too is highly controversial and many Christians would deny this.

As for picking myth from truth. That is a little harder. I guess the account of creation of the Hebrews is the most successful account which has been endorsed by an entire nation of the Jews and then by all the nations of the world as they converted to Christianity. The myths on the other hand did not endure. This is a mark of the divine word of God. Myths are believed for short periods of time by a certain nation here or there. The divine word of God is however an account which is believed universally in all countries of the world, and his word endures for the long generations.

Take the Myth of Marduk. This myth does not have the same credentials. It was never believed universally, nor has the myth endured as a belief system for a short period of time when the Babylonians were supreme in the world. But then it died out and nobody today believes in it.
It seems to be a little troubling. Would you doubt that the christian god was more popularized and spread further since Emperor Constantine witnessed a miracle of the christian god that aided him in battle? This miracle and victory made Christianity to be the dominate religion of the Roman empire. Thus bringing the age of the Holy Roman empire and a lineage of kings who are said to have divine right to rule. They too would also suppress other religions. What if Constantine interpreted this miracle as a different gods favor?
Well your history is a bit doddery. Constantine was not part of the Holy Roman Empire. In any event, you seem to have read over the word "miracle". Doesn't a miracle demonstrate God's endorsement of his church and his religion? There is no question that the conversion of Constantine was a divine act which resulted effectively in the salvation of the church. The church had been racked with the most violent of persecutions and ravaged by heresies. It was through the patronage of Constantine that the church was rejuvenated. If it were not for this event we might all be pagans today.

Constantine is therefore regarded as a Saint by the Church.
With regards to the Holy Roman Empire, with the collapse of the Roman Empire the power vacuum resulted in the church having to take on the role of the state. The church has never aspired to this role. Only today in the scripture reading we read "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and render unto God what is God's. The church has always seen the importance of the separation of roles between church and state. The state rules over the temporal physical needs of the people and the church provides for the spiritual and moral needs of the people. Of course there are important crossovers. The point being that the church did not welcome this responsibility and the Popes as soon as possible ordained Charlemagne as Emperor in 800 AD by Pope Leo III.

It depends what you mean by suppression of other religions. You may need to define your terms. In my view the Catholic Monarchs fostered and favoured the Catholic religion. This is not the same as actively suppressing other religions. It is unreasonable to expect a Catholic state to provide equal support to all religions.

I daresay that there are isolated examples where foreign religions were harshly repressed, however I believe that you will find that such examples are grossly exaggerated in order to discredit the Catholic church. Happy for you to provide some examples that we can study.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-10-2013, 06:37 PM
RE: The Big Think Creationism debate
(17-10-2013 03:08 AM)excubitor Wrote:  The evidence for an incomprehensibly mighty creator and designer is the creation. You cannot have a creation without a creator. The evidence of design in the universe is evidence of an intelligent designer. For some reason I look at dolphins and regard them as evidence of an incredibly powerful and almighty God.

And yet through no fault of their own, 20 some thousand children die each day in the presence of this almighty god. I struggle to see the "intelligence" in that.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: